Development Diary #35 - 1st of July 2009

[Mimmmo]

When Italy entered the war had 5 groups of armed

Border France (Umberto II)
Border Yugoslavia (Grossi)
Southern Italy and Islands (De Bono)
Northern Africa (Balbo)
Eastern Africa (Duca d'Aosta)


I can do this?

 

[Lauri]

I'm pretty certain you can't make new theatres
In that case, you could make many theatres, and have lots of bonuses applied to lots of units or, well... decreasing ranges for them, so logistics wouldn't be too much a problem..
However, reading the AI Control DD does make it looks like I might've been wrong...

And as for inteligence for the AI

Well the AI doesn’t cheat but it can do something you can’t. It can consider and evaluate more that its current plan. We don’t consider this a cheat because you will do the same, it just is able to talk directly to its theatre HQs to find out exactly what they need where as you guess these things and then find out when the plan is put into prepare.

 

[unmerged(105802)]

As far as I know, theatres will be created by AI. It does some calculations based some parameters to do this (eg. I know threat level is a factor).

 

[joeenochs]

I know that. But it doesn't make the Theater AI qualitatively different from any other formation AI, yet Theater AIs have defined territories. The question is, why?

I think it is fairly obvious.

Look at how a theatre is defined:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theater_(warfare)

Two theatres are two regions of war, which effect each other only indirectly and not directly. Whatever happens on Germany's Eastern front does not directly influence what happens on its Western front. The only dependency of one theatre to another is that whatever ressources you put into one theatre you do not have available for the other and vice versa. And of course winning or losing on any certain theatre influences what ressources you have available as a country at all.

For that reason it makes sense to separate responsibilities both in real life and also in the game AI. The high command (you as a player or the AI player entity) distributes the valuable ressources accross the theatres and the theatres make best use of it towards their goal without worrying what the other theatre does.

Notice that the same is not true for two army groups. If army groups centre and south do not coordinate, then there is a gap in the front.

So I conclude that the theatre AI works differently as any other AI. While working towards its objectives it will always look at the overall picture in its region and coordinate all forces in it.

If this is right, then if you want to pull of a Sealion, it is much better to assign this goal to a theatre and not to an army group of exactly the same strength. And a theatre which is supposed to pull of Barbarossa and a Sealion at the same time, would be endlessly confused, even if it had the ressources to do it.

I assume that every level of AI has such kind of specialization. For example a corps AI might be especially good to understand what to put into the frontline and what as reserves but it does not understand other things well.

 

[NrmK]

Interesting.. It is so damn hard to wait for another month to get my hands to complete game... I can't take it anymore...

 

[Alexander Seil]

I think it is fairly obvious.

Look at how a theatre is defined:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theater_(warfare)

Two theatres are two regions of war, which effect each other only indirectly and not directly. Whatever happens on Germany's Eastern front does not directly influence what happens on its Western front. The only dependency of one theatre to another is that whatever ressources you put into one theatre you do not have available for the other and vice versa. And of course or winning on a front influences what ressources you have at all.

For that reason it makes sense to separate responsibilities both in real life and also in the game AI. The high command (you as a player) distributes the valuable ressources accorss the theatres and the theatres make best use of it towards their goal without worrying what the other theatre does.

Notice that the same is not true for two army groups. If army groups centre and south do not coordinate, then there is a gap in the front.

So I conclude that the theatre AI works differently as any other AI. While working towards its objectives it will always look at the overall picture in its region.

That still doesn't answer the question of which units it controls - just those attached to it, or those stationed in the region and not attached to any other regions.

The problem is that a Theater is both an area on the map and a formation like any other. It's unclear what the interaction there is.

 

[Lauri]

The AI won't take control over anything... You'll have to give it control over things

 

[Alexander Seil]

The AI won't take control over anything... You'll have to give it control over things

That has nothing to do with my question :wacko:

Here -

If activated, will the Theater AI control only units assigned to it in the order of battle, or will it control all units within its own area that are not assigned to other Theaters (directly or indirectly)?

 

[unmerged(51416)]

That has nothing to do with my question :wacko:

Here -

If activated, will the Theater AI control only units assigned to it in the order of battle, or will it control all units within its own area that are not assigned to other Theaters (directly or indirectly)?

As I understand it, earlier on it has been stated that units are commanded by AI based on assigment. That's why if you take command of individual unit, you 'deactivate' (AI-wise) entire tree. Also, Johan has stated in this tread that to make an invasion you need to attach naval units to land command.

So it seems that it will only control units assigned to it, not within its own area. AI doesn't seem to be able to reorganize command structure in Player-controlled countries.

 

[unmerged(51416)]

I'm pretty certain you can't make new theatres
In that case, you could make many theatres, and have lots of bonuses applied to lots of units or, well... decreasing ranges for them, so logistics wouldn't be too much a problem..
However, reading the AI Control DD does make it looks like I might've been wrong...

And as for inteligence for the AI

I'm pretty sure you're wrong Bonuses are assigned to units via command structure, and you cannot assign one unit to more then one, say, theatre command. As each command have certain radius of influence, it's gonna be counter-productive to have more command units.

 

[joeenochs]

That still doesn't answer the question of which units it controls - just those attached to it, or those stationed in the region and not attached to any other regions.

The problem is that a Theater is both an area on the map and a formation like any other. It's unclear what the interaction there is.

No, it is pretty clear and has been answered.

The theatre only controls whatever unit is attached to it and nothing else.

The difference to other AI HQs is that while it works towards its objectives, it does it within the context of the region, which it is responsible for.

Example:
Imagine you have a German Eastern front theatre with the historic three army groups north south and centre.

Now you decide to take away 70% percent of the forces of army group centre and put it to manual control, but you do not move it.

So the theatre AI of the Eastern front will spot a big gap in army group centre. It can not plan with your now manually controlled force because you might start to redeploy this at any time to any other place in the world.
So the theatre AI will shuffle around its forces and move forces from army group north and south to the centre so that the frontline matches the opponent everywhere as best as possible.

So I think you see that if your intention is really to keep the manually controlled forces in the region of Germany's Eastern front, then from an overall perspective your forces will not work together well. Of course, when you only manually control one or two divisions in the region this effect is hardly noticeable. And maybe over time you learn what works and what not.

But in general, if your goal is to mess around with army group centre, then you should remove the AI control from the theatre, put army groups north and south unter AI control and manually control army group centre. In this case it is also clear that you as player have also the task to do the overall coordination of the Eastern front theatre.

 

[unmerged(54763)]

You welcome, I think
I can't of course say anything surely but I have always imagined that we can create on Theatre for anything we want to.
As Germany
One for Poland
One for Fall Gelb
One for Seelöwe
One for Mediterranian
One for Africa
Three for Barbarossa and one more to Finland
Et cetera.

Though Germans in eastern front had 3 army groups not 3 Theaters,its seems to me interesting to form(if such thing will be possible of course) 3 german AI theatares for Eastern front.
I mean 200 or what German divisions is realy much for one colosal AI Eeastern theater, I mean certainly will be more efective if actualy will be 3 theaters(North, Center ,South).
Barbarrosa was so immense battlefield that one german Army group had up to 80 divisions at some points/as well in game, and thats the size in a rank of Allied theaters.
Historical aproach of Germans towards their army groups on eastern front could be understand hat those were practicaly different theaters.For instance in 1942 Germans put an accent on strenghtening only South group(not enough resources to strenghten all 3)and logistical an other support aproach tells as that South group at least in preparation for offensive in 1942 is considerred and aproached as separate theater.

There is allso a question I currently cant answer to myself:
If my eastern front is one and only big eastern Theater,and that theater I choosed to be led by AI..than can I give separate orders to army groups that are under the command of this AI theater?. Will AI theater understand that I want him to advance in 3 directions-Leningrad, Moscow, Kiev?Can I give an order to Theater to atack simultaneously in 3 directions? 3 goals?If not,than how can I give order to subordinated unit of this AI theater to atack in different directions when those units are allready under AI theater control?
Or maybee Me to be coommander of Eastern theater and than army groups to leave to AI with their separate orders?

So many questions I cant wait to answer myself when I download the game..its 34 days left.. isnt it!?

 

[joeenochs]

As another example, if you want to pull of an invasion to England then you have to assign forces to this and you have to use these forces entirely towards this goal.

So if you assign the Western theatre AI the task to perform an invasion to England, it will have a very hard time to decide how many forces it should invade England with and how many forces it should keep in France to defend the coast. On the other hand, if there are two theatres, one for England and one for the rest of the Western front, then both theatres can concentrate on their tasks. And the player or the AI overall war planning entity will decide what theatre gets what ressources.

 

[NrmK]

Yes, well... What can I say? It was 23:30 here in Finland when I wrote. Tired and unrational, don't listen me x)

That depends on can you give several objectives to one theatre/army group, I think.
Case 1. You can give AI theatre "East": Moscow, Leningrad, Kiev as objectives.
Case 2. You can give only one objective: Moscow OR Leningrad OR Kiev. Right?
I'd prefer case 1.

 

[Shadow Knight]

Sweet bejeebus! That's really cool Johan, thanks!

 

[unmerged(54763)]

Yes, well... What can I say? It was 23:30 here in Finland when I wrote. Tired and unrational, don't listen me x)

That depends on can you give several objectives to one theatre/army group, I think.
Case 1. You can give AI theatre "East": Moscow, Leningrad, Kiev as objectives.
Case 2. You can give only one objective: Moscow OR Leningrad OR Kiev. Right?
I'd prefer case 1.

Third option(again if possible) is that Myself is commander of eastern theater but forming 3 army groups and every army group I asign to be led by AI.That of course means I will only move around (forward I spose) my single Eastern Theater HQ.

 

[joeenochs]

Though Germans in eastern front had 3 army groups not 3 Theaters,its seems to me interesting to form(if such thing will be possible of course) 3 german AI theatares for Eastern front.
I mean 200 or what German divisions is realy much for one colosal AI Eeastern theater, I mean certainly will be more efective if actualy will be 3 theaters(North, Center ,South).
Barbarrosa was so immense battlefield that one german Army group had up to 80 divisions at some points/as well in game, and thats the size in a rank of Allied theaters.
Historical aproach of Germans towards their army groups on eastern front could be understand hat those were practicaly different theaters.For instance in 1942 Germans put an accent on strenghtening only South group(not enough resources to strenghten all 3)and logistical an other support aproach tells as that South group at least in preparation for offensive in 1942 is considerred as,allmost, separate theater.

There is allso a question I currently cant answer to myself:
If my eastern front is one and only big eastern Theater,and that theater I choosed to be led by AI..than can I give separate orders to army groups that are under the command of this AI theater?. Will AI theater understand that I want him to advance in 3 directions-Leningrad, Moscow, Kiev?Can I give an order to Theater to atack simultaneously in 3 directions? 3 goals?If not,than how can I give order to subordinated unit of this AI theater to atack in different directions when those units are allready under AI theater control?
Or maybee Me to be coommander of Eastern theater and than army groups to leave to AI with their separate orders?

So many questions I cant wait to answer myself when I download the game..its 34 days left.. isnt it!?

It is not a good idea. Only the Eastern front as a whole is a good theatre, the army groups can't be.

Read Manstein. (Or read wikipedia)
In his book there is a sentence like:
There comes a time, where even the commander of an army group has to coordinate with other army groups.

You could never say this sentence about the western front when you are in charge of the eastern front. If the Americans land in the Normandie, the Eastern front is not directly affected. Only that it probably gets less ressources.

On the other hand, if army group centre breaks, army group south is in danger of being encircled. It is not so hard to understand.

Exactly for this reason Manstein urged Hitler to appoint a field marshal who would be responsible for the entire Eastern front and who would report to Hitler. This never happened and it might be that this is why Germany lost the war.

Also, if the theatre is AI contolled, there is no way for you to manually control any unit below the theatre. And it is exactly because the AI can't now what the player does. But it would have to know to coordinate.

 

[NrmK]

Personal command... I had completely forgotten that x3. Whups?
Well, no matter. I intend to play mostly with AI on because I want to see how good it is really.

 

[lordashran]

Wouldnt just leaving the theater under manual control and give the army groups under it to the ai with clear objectives (if this is possible, I think it is but I am not 100% sure) have the same results?

so just go one step below theater in the hierarchy to organize your troops better (or more to your liking)

I hope this is possible

 

[joeenochs]

Wouldnt just leaving the theater under manual control and give the army groups under it to the ai with clear objectives (if this is possible, I think it is but I am not 100% sure) have the same results?

so just go one step below theater in the hierarchy to organize your troops better (or more to your liking)

I hope this is possible

Yes, it is possible.