Development Diary #26 - 29nd of April 2009

[DiLune]

Yes, but I mean in a more detalied way . They are too many things that I don't like of the HoI2 air warfare representation, maybe the only that I like is the represented unit (german wing), the type of missions and how the units moves around the map . And in that DD it was too little info about, I could be wrong but I only remember that says something about missions and nothing else.

Hmm. Speaking of Air Combat and this particular DD...will we organize air units the same way we are organizing land units? Each individual air division will have a major general, an Air Corps will have a Lt General, etc?

 

[dsteve3]

Frontage is province-specific.

Frontage is the same in every province, isn't it? They have specifically said that the rational is that even in large-area provinces, there are only so many places that units can "fit". ...?

The solution you're looking for is detaching parts of divisions to fill out the less active sections of the front.

(bold mine - dsteve3)

Do you mean detach divions to fill? Brigades or 1-brigade Divisions are uncommandable, so loose all command bonuses. Why would you put a tiny, non-bonused unit on an active front? To use the MMORPG term, it would be an agro-magnet.

What I'm actually looking for is the real frontage number, and whether or not the frontage will be measured across the whole front, or each province individually.

I have to confess I'm nervous about this rumour that the province frontage is 10. I feel thats a huge frontage number and will end up encouraging the scourge of "Giagantic Mega Armies" or GMA for short. If you consider that an army with good commanders will use three or four times the number of divisions necessary to cover a frontage, as the Corp commanders will by cycling those divisions during battles, and each division will have a frontage of between 2 and 6, then an army covering an 8 province-front could concievably utilize up to 120 divisions for a single phase of a campaign!

If the province frontage is not contiguous, then at least there won't be overspill for formations that exceed the provincial frontage. This would curtail the GMA condition by making excess redundant. Inversely, within a single region, its not realistic that a formation in a single province would be restricted to attacking across only its own front.

I'm still trying to visualize pincer movements, and getting very confused. I have a hard time seeing how anything other than 3 or 4 times the number of historic divisons will be able to do this.

 

[unmerged(122939)]

Hmm. Speaking of Air Combat and this particular DD...will we organize air units the same way we are organizing land units? Each individual air division will have a major general, an Air Corps will have a Lt General, etc?

That is one of my hopes for HoI3, not only because I think it would lead to a better representation, but also because it would be something natural to port the chain of command of land units to air and sea units .

 

[Crushwolf]

I'm doing this here instead of notepad; ignore if you will.

3 Div = Corp 1 HQ
9 Div = Army = 3 + 1 = 4 HQ
27 Div = Army Group = 9 + 3 + 1 = 13 HQ
81 Div = Theatre (~) = 27 + 9 + 3 + 1 = 40 HQ

Each HQ lvl is unique, so for this formula of "Theatre" I'll need 27 Corp HQ, 9 Army HQ, 3 Army Group HQ and 1 Theatre HQ.

If I want to change a ratio in the function (4 Divs/Corp, 4 Corps/Army, etc) I have to multiply that HQ level only as each level is unique.

e.g.: 4 Divs/Corp = no change in HQ symetry; 4 Corp/Army = 4/12/36 Corp HQ for Army/ArmyGroup/Theatre respectively.


Don't know penalties for Lt Gen Commanding 4/5/6 Divs, or General commanding 10/12/16 Divs, or even if there is a penalty. Maybe command chain doesn't have that kind of penalty anymore.

Don't know how many Divs will be needed to fill frontage. Don't know if frontage will be contiguous.

e.g.: 5 province with (x) frontage each filled by 5 (formtions). Say (formation frontage) = 1.2(x). Does that mean that my 5 formations will have sufficient frontage to cover 6 provinces, if the units can be dispersed to fill those provinces? Or does excess unit frontage not overflow into neighbouring provinces?

I've got a similiar question but much more basic; what is the span of control for each HQ? This is extremely important...it would be extremely unrealistic if you had 20 divisions reporting to a Coprs in one area and 3 to another. Realistically, this is still a major issue for modern armies.

 

[Alexander Seil]

Frontage is the same in every province, isn't it? They have specifically said that the rational is that even in large-area provinces, there are only so many places that units can "fit". ...?

That's what I meant. But there are no "spillovers."

Do you mean detach divions to fill? Brigades or 1-brigade Divisions are uncommandable, so loose all command bonuses. Why would you put a tiny, non-bonused unit on an active front? To use the MMORPG term, it would be an agro-magnet.

They are uncommandable, but they are the "filler" you need to make sure every province is covered. Obviously you would probably avoid this if faced with a superior enemy force. If you are facing a superior, offensive-ready enemy forces across the entire front, though, it may be simpler to withdraw to a shorter front.

What I'm actually looking for is the real frontage number, and whether or not the frontage will be measured across the whole front, or each province individually.

Not quite sure what you mean here.

I have to confess I'm nervous about this rumour that the province frontage is 10. I feel thats a huge frontage number and will end up encouraging the scourge of "Giagantic Mega Armies" or GMA for short. If you consider that an army with good commanders will use three or four times the number of divisions necessary to cover a frontage, as the Corp commanders will by cycling those divisions during battles, and each division will have a frontage of between 2 and 6, then an army covering an 8 province-front could concievably utilize up to 120 divisions for a single phase of a campaign!

I don't really see the connection here.

If the province frontage is not contiguous, then at least there won't be overspill for formations that exceed the provincial frontage. This would curtail the GMA condition by making excess redundant. Inversely, within a single region, its not realistic that a formation in a single province would be restricted to attacking across only its own front.

Frontage is the property of a province, and of combat involving said province.

EDIT: I was ambiguous. Frontage is province connection specific. Look at DD Land Combat I, which discusses this.

 

[dublish]

I have to confess I'm nervous about this rumour that the province frontage is 10. I feel thats a huge frontage number and will end up encouraging the scourge of "Giagantic Mega Armies" or GMA for short. If you consider that an army with good commanders will use three or four times the number of divisions necessary to cover a frontage, as the Corp commanders will by cycling those divisions during battles, and each division will have a frontage of between 2 and 6, then an army covering an 8 province-front could concievably utilize up to 120 divisions for a single phase of a campaign!

I think the number of countries capable of affording and supplying 120 divisions along an 8 province front can be counted on one hand.

 

[unmerged(140791)]

Thanks for the update johan, if it possible if you can tell us a bit about the AI, e.g what it can do etc

I have a post under my username pakmaninuk

 

[joeenochs]

First of all congratulations to the Devs for showing some great stuff.

Then a question:
Since we talk about the chain of command, I wonder, if it can help me to manage my many divisions on the eastern front by giving commands on a higher level. We already learned that we can pass AI control on theater level. But apart from this, just as a dream, could I give my 6th army the command to hold Stalingrad and the AI would control its divisions towards this goal?
Or as a more modest idea, can I do strategic redeployments on a higher level than a division?

Finally a small detail:
From the screen shot it is clear that the number of Xs of an HQ represents its level. For example four Xs stand for an army. (Is that NATO notation?) But notice, that the HQ brigades all have one X no matter of the HQ level of the HQ unit. I would conclude that HQ brigades are all the same thing when you produce them and the decision about the level is made when you put them on the map. But other then that, are HQ brigades entities, which can be moved around as normal single brigade divisions and then give life to a new HQ of a different level?

 

[Shadow Knight]

:drool:

Thanks Johan for the cool info!

 

[vertinox]

You don't need brilliant Army Group or Theater commanders, you need brilliant Corps and Divisional commanders (and maybe that's more accurate.)

But brilliant Corps and Divisional commanders might not be as common (at least for some nations) so you might have to juggle them properly or at least make sure you keep them in communication with your theater commander.

 

[joeenochs]

You don't need brilliant Army Group or Theater commanders, you need brilliant Corps and Divisional commanders (and maybe that's more accurate.)

I think, you forget about a whole dimension here.

Regarding skills the leader always contributes fully, just in different areas. The reduction is only with traits.

So you have to decide, do I need org more badly then reduced supply?

 

[Duchamp]

As a GIP (Graphics Improvement Project mod) member I have a question for the developers. Could you confirm if the pictures of minister and leaders are the same of the previous games? (36x50 bmp)

 

[dublish]

Since we talk about the chain of command, I wonder, if it can help me to manage my many divisions on the eastern front by giving commands on a higher level. We already learned that we can pass AI control on theater level. But apart from this, just as a dream, could I give my 6th army the command to hold Stalingrad and the AI would control its divisions towards this goal?

Judging from the manner in which orders are given to air units, I think your dream will come true.

Or as a more modest idea, can I do strategic redeployments on a higher level than a division?

In HoI2, you could select any number of units and redeploy them all at once. I imagine something similar will be implemented, but I don't really know. I just felt compelled to answer this because I was answering the rest of your post. o

Finally a small detail:
From the screen shot it is clear that the number of Xs of an HQ represents its level. For example four Xs stand for an army. (Is that NATO notation?) But notice, that the HQ brigades all have one X no matter of the HQ level of the HQ unit. I would conclude that HQ brigades are all the same thing when you produce them and the decision about the level is made when you put them on the map. But other then that, are HQ brigades entities, which can be moved around as normal single brigade divisions and then give life to a new HQ of a different level?

This is NATO notation. Xs designate brigade, division, corps, army, army group, theatre from 1-6 Xs. Smaller units use different symbols, like | for company through regiment, but those are below the scope of this game. Your other conclusions, as far as I can tell, have already been confirmed, except for the part about changing the level of an HQ that's already been produced. King might have already shot that one down.

 

[unmerged(63310)]

I think, you forget about a whole dimension here.

Regarding skills the leader always contributes fully, just in different areas. The reduction is only with traits.

So you have to decide, do I need org more badly then reduced supply?

But we are talking about some of the famous generals, as Rommel or Mannstein etc who have high skill and 3 or more traits. In these cases it makes sense to keep them most likely Corp or maybe Army commanders while promoting von Kluge or a high skill single trait commander.

The traits become quite relevant because of stacking same trait at multiple levels and skill/radio/distance modifier on how much of a trait gets passed down command chain.

 

[Chilango2]

Forgive me if this has been asked, but I was only able to skim the last ten or so pages:

1) Is it possible to create two divisions from a single division with two or more brigades? (I assume you'd pay the 'create a division' cost which as I understand it is seperate and addition to the brigade cost.

2) By the same token, is it possible to disband a division by merging its last brigade into another division? If so, is one reimbursed the cost of the division?

Thanks.

 

[joeenochs]

Forgive me if this has been asked, but I was only able to skim the last ten or so pages:

1) Is it possible to create two divisions from a single division with two or more brigades? (I assume you'd pay the 'create a division' cost which as I understand it is seperate and addition to the brigade cost.

2) By the same token, is it possible to disband a division by merging its last brigade into another division? If so, is one reimbursed the cost of the division?

Thanks.

1) Yes.

2) Yes. As I see it, a division is just an empty container. "Real" are only the brigades. So divisions are created and deleted on the fly.

 

[dublish]

1) Is it possible to create two divisions from a single division with two or more brigades? (I assume you'd pay the 'create a division' cost which as I understand it is seperate and addition to the brigade cost.

Technically, you'd be creating 2 brigades by splitting the division up. But yes, you would have two separate units, each of brigade strength. You wouldn't be able to assign a leader to either one, though.

2) By the same token, is it possible to disband a division by merging its last brigade into another division? If so, is one reimbursed the cost of the division?

Yes, you can merge existing units in such a manner, as long as there is enough room within the division (up to 5 brigades depending on doctrine).

I'm not sure what you mean by 'cost of the division' though, in either question. The only cost I think I've heard about is the consumer goods cost that's levied for every brigade in the field.

 

[unmerged(131692)]

In DD#25 Paradox used "miles per hour" as the velocity unit.
In this one I see "km" and "km/h". Does this mean that Paradox will use S.I. units in the final game.
I apreciate a reply if someone knows.


(Sorry for my english)

 

[unmerged(122939)]

In DD#25 Paradox used "miles per hour" as the velocity unit.
In this one I see "km" and "km/h". Does this mean that Paradox will use S.I. units in the final game.
I apreciate a reply if someone knows.


(Sorry for my english)

As I understand, they will use SI measure units, the mph were an error . Though I could be wrong, but that is what I remember that Johan said some time ago.

 

[Polarisan]

Ooh... nice! I can't wait to try out the new sistem!

I was dissapointed that I didn't get a pic of argentina, but meh, this is way better!

Cheers;
Nick