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dsteve3

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LoL if Great Britain had allowed the Polish government-in-exile to continue to exsist after German capitulation due to the Soviet occupation of Polland, that would be a defacto declaration of war by Great Britain against the Soviet Union.

Good luck with that.
 

zeekater

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IRL In Norway, the government and the king escaped and formed a GiE - but Germany installed a puppet governement (run by Quisling). The same goes for France where Vichy in everything but name was a puppet.

Quisling is a 'collaborationist goverment'. The distinction might not be so clear, I find it helpful to ask myself 'could it build it's own divisions' (which is NO for quisling) to determine puppet or not :)
 

Azkor

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Question: Does this not make it more advantageous for the german player to go for a total conquest of france rather than setting up Vichy? The amount of IC from the occupied territories in my mind does not offset the massive PITA that the partisans could turn into.
 

Derek Pullem

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I'm not sure I follow this.

Is there any reason for any government NOT to go into exile?

You write, that "another faction" can choose to install a puppet. But not if the exile government exists. Or?

IRL In Norway, the government and the king escaped and formed a GiE - but Germany installed a puppet governement (run by Quisling). The same goes for France where Vichy in everything but name was a puppet.

It'd make more sense that a GiE exists for as long, as there is no apparant government in your own country. Let's take Poland. After having been run over by Germany, everything is as IRL. But then Germany decides to reestablist Poland with slightly altered borders. This would result in two polish governments - one puppet and one exiled. Years later the war ebbs out with Germany in control of Europe and UK/USA independent etc. But they still have a few poles sitting somewhere in Washington, dreaming of one time returning to their country - and Poland is up and running with a new (puppet) government. Eventually the Exile government would cease - as in IRL.

How does this work, if everything goes as IRL? SU runs over Poland and establishes a puppet. The polish GiE gave up eventually. How is this emulated in the game?


Isn't the government in exile really a way to highlight internal opposition to an armed takeover of the nation. As such I can see that whilst the faction supporting it exists then it wouldn't "give up" it's opposition to the invaders. The problem comes when a third party occupies the land (not part of the faction with the GiE) - it now cannot reestablish the nation as an independent state.

This is ahistorical although it might make for better gameplay. However - consider Japan invading Siberia or Germany Russia. Both could set up big puppet states in HoI2. If the Russians retake then will the Axis get GiE too?

Obviously the devil is in the detail - we'll have to wait and see :D
 

zeekater

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Question: Does this not make it more advantageous for the german player to go for a total conquest of france rather than setting up Vichy? The amount of IC from the occupied territories in my mind does not offset the massive PITA that the partisans could turn into.

Some other disadvantages:

- a whole new coast to guard
- French North-Africa doesn't stay neutral, the allies can immediatly attack Italy from Tunis
- French fleet joins allies
-all other French colonies stay in the allies
 

unmerged(75409)

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I'm not sure I follow this.

Is there any reason for any government NOT to go into exile?

You write, that "another faction" can choose to install a puppet. But not if the exile government exists. Or?

IRL In Norway, the government and the king escaped and formed a GiE - but Germany installed a puppet governement (run by Quisling). The same goes for France where Vichy in everything but name was a puppet.

It'd make more sense that a GiE exists for as long, as there is no apparant government in your own country. Let's take Poland. After having been run over by Germany, everything is as IRL. But then Germany decides to reestablist Poland with slightly altered borders. This would result in two polish governments - one puppet and one exiled. Years later the war ebbs out with Germany in control of Europe and UK/USA independent etc. But they still have a few poles sitting somewhere in Washington, dreaming of one time returning to their country - and Poland is up and running with a new (puppet) government. Eventually the Exile government would cease - as in IRL.

How does this work, if everything goes as IRL? SU runs over Poland and establishes a puppet. The polish GiE gave up eventually. How is this emulated in the game?
There is nothing to stop Germany from proposing a peace treaty to Poland once they have overrun everything. I things work as they did in Hoi2 then
10% occupied Poland is forced to accept anything but a direct surrender. So if germany does that, Poland (POLA) gets its land back minus whatever cores Germany has (1914 borders presumably). exile gov returns, re-assumes leadership of the country, done. There would never be two Polands.

Now the USSR on the other hand can push Germany out of Poland and assume control of the provinces belonging to the Polish government in exile. Stalin also could give the Poles back their land. (But not though peace, since they weren't really at war, if things are as I assume they will be.) However he does not want the democratic government to return, so he goes and releases the People's Republic of Poland (PRL tag?) as a puppet. Since the PRL Poland gets all the provinces of the original Poland (POL), the exile government for POL is dismantled and there is only one Poland left.

Note that Stalin already saw the exile government briefly in control of Warsaw province when a partisan unit rose up and defeated the German garrison in August 1944. He noticed that, since he was not at war with the Poles, he could have helped POL return to the country by pushing the Germans out and letting the Polish units march into the provinces controlled by SOV units. If things work as they did in HoI2, then POL automatically gets control back over its provinces once it moves into them. But Stalin decided that this was not so desirable, so he let the Germans crush Warsaw and wipe out the partisan units. So when Stalin restarts his offensive in winter, all of Poland is again under GER control and he can assume control of it all, allowing him to decide the postwar future of Poland himself.

OFC the whole thing could also be managed through events, without the need for a PRL tag... Stalin wins the war and owns Poland, then he goes and pushes the button to trigger the event "The war is over and we can decide what to do with Poland". An event could cause the USSR to "inherit" the government in exile and then release it again as a commie puppet (under the original tag POL, just with a different political party in power).
 

Striker475

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Yugoslav guerilla war AARs, here we come!

Couple of little things, though:

- Italy. Will it be represented as a GiEx assuming Husky? Or will an event-driven split of the nation continue to be in place?
- Puppets. Will a created puppet (say, Slovakia or possibly something like Ukraine) be able to GiEx later in the war?
- Axis encampments - it's not reasonable to have a Manchukuo GiEx based out of Berlin. Will Japan and the Far East thus be treated as a separate alliance rather than part of the Axis? Or alternately, will there be the ability to "rebase" a GiEx?

And finally, will GiExs be able to be created by event? Because there are some wonderful modding possibilities.........India...ME...Russia under Vlasov...
 

Ex Mudder

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Interesting ideas here. Say I DoW and invade Ireland as the UK in 1940. Ireland joins the Axis, and then we have an Irish govt in exile in Berlin causing problems in Eire for the Brits.

Another interesting possibility - have Egypt, India, Indonesia, Congo, etc modelled as conquered/captured nations from 1936, with the choice of exploiting or setting up a puppet government in them from the beginning of the game. Would allow better setups of national resources and manpower without making the colonies too beneficial to their European overlords. You'd just have to make liberating them damage national unity / dissent / ruling party support.
 

Vulture

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Quisling is a 'collaborationist goverment'. The distinction might not be so clear, I find it helpful to ask myself 'could it build it's own divisions' (which is NO for quisling) to determine puppet or not :)

I'd say that's a good general rule of thumb. Vichy was a puppet indeed. As was RSI in the later days of the war. So were Slovakia and at various stages during the war the other Balkan axis members. Norway and most other overrun countries (like Belgium & Holland) were occupied with some semi-official civilian 'govs' in place: collaboration governments. No way Belgium or Holland would field their own divisions in WWII under German flag. Neither would Norway. What these countries *did* do was provide manpower for German divisions (like SS-Divisionen 'Wiking, 'Langemark', 'Wallonien', 'Niederlanden',...). This is simulated ingame since you draw MP from them.

Just my 2 cents on it. It's a very thin line, but there *is* a clear distinction between a puppet and a collaboration government.
 

unmerged(75409)

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LoL if Great Britain had allowed the Polish government-in-exile to continue to exsist after German capitulation due to the Soviet occupation of Polland, that would be a defacto declaration of war by Great Britain against the Soviet Union.

Good luck with that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_government_in_exile#Wartime_history

The government existed all the way up to 1990. They were housed in an apartment in London, where they kept a bunch of symbols of the Polish republic which were rescued from Warsaw in 1939.

However the Allied powers withdrew their recognition in summer 1945 so the GIEX effectively ceased to function.
 

Van Diemen

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I do hope that the partisans will be powerful enough in the field, so that you won't destroy their division as easily as in HoI2. Also where will partisans draw any supplies from?
 

Chaplain

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- Axis encampments - it's not reasonable to have a Manchukuo GiEx based out of Berlin. Will Japan and the Far East thus be treated as a separate alliance rather than part of the Axis? Or alternately, will there be the ability to "rebase" a GiEx?

That's a really good question ...
 

Filou

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and every country needs a fascist, communist, etc tag.
Well, Germany does have the trio :eek:o
I would see Poland needing a commie tag to respect history of the Government in Exile not being part of the new government installed by the Soviets.
Or will the Soviets implement their own occupation policy after they ousted the Nazis?


In any cases, Government in Exile is very Good.
I'll wait and see before complaining too much about the specific mechanics of the post war.
 

Vulture

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Well, Germany does have the trio :eek:o

They do? Last time I looked all versions of 'Germany' in HOI2 used the same GER tag, beit commie, democratic or fascistoid.

BRD and DDR were new countries alltogether and in no way successor of the pre-war Germany. Commie Poland was still the successor of pre-war Poland. As was Gaullist France for pre-war France. Vichy was a new entity, so new tag.
 

vota dc

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- Axis encampments - it's not reasonable to have a Manchukuo GiEx based out of Berlin. Will Japan and the Far East thus be treated as a separate alliance rather than part of the Axis? Or alternately, will there be the ability to "rebase" a GiEx?

I think...yes.For example...Machukuo is conquered,the GiEx will be at Berlin,but if Germany falls the new GiEx should be in Japan because the member with most IC is the leader of a faction.
 

Derek Pullem

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They do? Last time I looked all versions of 'Germany' in HOI2 used the same GER tag, beit commie, democratic or fascistoid.

BRD and DDR were new countries alltogether and in no way successor of the pre-war Germany. Commie Poland was still the successor of pre-war Poland. As was Gaullist France for pre-war France. Vichy was a new entity, so new tag.
Historically maybe - but in hoi2 both bdr and ddr could be german successor states
 

Hansag

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Widely accepted:
x = brigade
xx = division
xxx = corps
xxxx = army
xxxxx = army group

Yah, that's what I'm saying :)
The militia only has one X :)
 

unmerged(17173)

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Maybe this has been asked already, let's say that things go historically and Germany annexes Poland in 1939, Poland forms a government-in-exile, the Red Army reconquers Poland in 1944 and the war ends with Soviet occupation of Poland. How would the Soviet Union install their puppet government in Poland?
 

Hansag

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Perhaps Poland was just a Collaborationist government during the whole cold war, and that there were a government-in-exile in the west, but due to various political considerations they didn't get that much support from the Allies?