Development Diary #16 - 11th of February 2009

[Ostheim]

the concept of "shattered" units is good,
however as long as the capital is the absoulute center of the world for the countries, it will lead to weird results

Edit: Jmland is onto what I'm trying to explain

A shattered unit is essentially one that fights hard (sometimes too hard) but ends up utterly destroyed in the process. It's basically an abstraction of what happens sometimes in battle on the divisional scale. Think of it as a combat event from hoi2, like breakthrough. The enemy breaks through your divisional positions and wreaks total havoc, destroying and capturing your equipment, and cutting off the chain of command--all before that division can retreat in any cohesive manner. In this case there is so much chaos and confusion the division and it's subdivisions simply can't function. As the enemy continues their attack you are helpless to do anything but grab what you can and disperse in total defeat with whoever is left around you, or hold your position and get slaughtered. It might be a mixture of poor command, lack of supplies or equipment, overwhelming enemy forces, or simply getting out-maneuvered that leads to this kind of mess.

None of these details are really important though because the game doesn't go beyond brigades with stats to calculate the battle equations. It's an abstraction of a division failing totally either by its own error, the success of the enemy, or both. I am not certain but I assume factors from both sides determine shatter probability, as would make sense.

 

[potski]

As we said a few dozen times.. There is nothing SHIPPED back from a shattered unit. Those people are prisoners, dead, lost etc.

Say it again Johan, there might be some people who still haven't got it.

Shattered = exists in name only

For non-English speakers, we would use the word "shattered" to describe breaking the glass in a window. Once all of the glass is broken, it's not a window any more, it isn't going to stop the wind and rain, it's just an empty frame. From a distance it might look like a window, but when you get up close it's just a hole in a wall, but it has the capability of having new glass put in to form it back into a window.

So all you have left is the empty shell of the Div with it's Maj.Gen. No men capable of fighting and no equipment, no strength, no org. Whatever men/strength were still in the Div when it shattered have been put into the replacement battalions near the front (the MP pool) and will be recycled back into other front-line units later.

Shattered Div X doesn't teleport from India to London. The Chief of Staff based in London writes an order to his staff to start reforming Div. X which exists in name only. It starts reforming with mainly green troops from the MP pool in London, and new equipment. The Maj Gen transfers back to London by plane to continue to command Div X. Unless he has been killed/injured, as there should be a much higher chance in this situation.

This is mainly a paper exercise that retains unit history and Bde structure, and keeps the link between the commanders and units. But it also stops daft things like units being defeated by ground attack, then attacked by air when retreating, and then suddenly completely disappearing from the game. Some of the units from the Falaise Pocket had enough men in them to escape back to eastern France, regroup and begin fighting again (routed). Others didn't and really only existed on paper (shattered), and had to be completely reformed in Germany.

If it's a little odd for India/London (that the Chief of Staff doesn't order the Div to be rebuilt in Delhi) it's no more odd than the original mechanism when the Div was first built in London, and needed to be transported out to India. Which is one of the reasons why the UK/India thing should be sorted out, but that's another thread.

Obviously you have a choice what to do if a shattered Div arrives back in your capital - you could just disband it, and assign the commander to a different unit back in the front-line.

What you will get in an invasion of many small countries, short of some huge strategic encirclement, is lots of shattered Divs arriving back in the capital with no chance of being rebuilt to full strength and returning to active combat duties before the country is overrun. This will mean that if the defeated country then surrenders and becomes a puppet most of the defeated Army can eventually be rebuilt from those shattered units.

 

[kstanb]

Shattered = exists in name only
If it's a little odd for India/London (that the Chief of Staff doesn't order the Div to be rebuilt in Delhi) it's no more odd than the original mechanism when the Div was first built in London, and needed to be transported out to India. Which is one of the reasons why the UK/India thing should be sorted out, but that's another thread.

But that again doesn't explain why HI3 will differentiate between a destroyed unit (no supply line) --> eliminated from the game
and a shattered one (with supply line) --> not eliminated from the game.

Why you can't re-build a destroyed unit while you can re-build a shattered one? The replacement pool of both is people that were not in the battle

 

[potski]

So could we please get some clarification on Colonial Divisions.

Where exactly do they get rebuilt once they are shattered

There was no such thing in HOI2. Only Vicky has Colonial Divisions created in the provinces of the colony from the local pops. HOI2 had everything abstracted from the capital.

 

[Ostheim]

But that again doesn't explain why HI3 will differentiate between a destroyed unit (no supply line) --> eliminated from the game
and a shattered one (with supply line) --> not eliminated from the game.

Why you can't re-build a destroyed unit while you can re-build a shattered one? The replacement pool of both is people that were not in the battle

I believe the difference is you lose all of the manpower and experience from divisions lost in a pocket, whereas you retain both some mp and experience from a shattered division. You can rebuild both, but for a destroyed unit I don't think there's any benefit other than an easy way to have a new division of the same name.

 

[EntropyAvatar]

Shattered Div X doesn't teleport from India to London. The Chief of Staff based in London writes an order to his staff to start reforming Div. X which exists in name only.

If a shattered division is one that exists in name only, and no survivors from the division return, then why does it matter whether or not the unit is cut off from supply when it shatters?

If it's really just a name and maybe a few people who were on vacation or in hospital at the time, then I should be able to rebuild the unit even if it was surrounded. After all, being surrounded doesn't make me forget the name, and the people on vacation or in the hospital weren't surrounded.

Presumably reinforcing a division up to full strength will carry a lower IC cost than constructing it new (otherwise why bother even making a distinction). If that's the case, then it implies that there must be *something* that allows you to rebuild the division more cheaply that would have been lost if the unit was cut off. So what is this something?

 

[unmerged(21821)]

Easiest solution might be to "flag" certain provinces as colony provinces (differentiating them from occupied/random other possessions), and have a colony capital for these colonial posessions (Delhi/Algiers/Damascus.. whatever). Thus, colonial divisons would be handled by a parallel "capital" system of their own, but in the exactly same manner as normal divisions.

 

[zeekater]

But that again doesn't explain why HI3 will differentiate between a destroyed unit (no supply line) --> eliminated from the game
and a shattered one (with supply line) --> not eliminated from the game.

Why you can't re-build a destroyed unit while you can re-build a shattered one? The replacement pool of both is people that were not in the battle

You CAN rebuild a destroyed division, but using the normal way, using production They won't have any experience.

Shattered divisions have a core of experienced troops, around which you reinforce the division.

In both cases you get a division with the same name back, just like in HoI2, if a unit gets destroyed, the next one build, takes that name again.

 

[Luka]

The infrastructure effect is much more interesting, if you quickly overrun the enemy in a province you will capture the infrastructure fairly intact, allowing you to supply your advance much more effectively than if you have fought a long drawn fight that has thoroughly devastated the province.

I suggested something similar to this a very long time ago and I'm exceptionally pleased that it's being included in the game mechanic. I was originally trying to explain a game mechanic that would help simulate battles such as Stalingrad and Cassino. The fact that more fighting occurred in a province, meant that the defenders were favored more due to the destruction of the city. Johan, does low infra assist defenders? I don't think it does but it perhaps should. Unfortunately it can represent two different things: a plain field like on the steppe and a destroyed city that previously has large infra.
A solution could be a combat modifier based upon the ratio: base_infra / current_infra

 

[Modestus]

This is mainly a paper exercise that retains unit history and Bde structure, and keeps the link between the commanders and units. But it also stops daft things like units being defeated by ground attack, then attacked by air when retreating, and then suddenly completely disappearing from the game. Some of the units from the Falaise Pocket had enough men in them to escape back to eastern France, regroup and begin fighting again (routed). Others didn't and really only existed on paper (shattered), and had to be completely reformed in Germany.

Now thats interesting, I was thinking to myself what is the point of having a unit shatter. I wonder are there any other benefits?

 

[kstanb]

I believe the difference is you lose all of the manpower and experience from divisions lost in a pocket, whereas you retain both some mp and experience from a shattered division. You can rebuild both, but for a destroyed unit I don't think there's any benefit other than an easy way to have a new division of the same name.

yes, but it was stated that neither MP nor experience will be used to re-build the shattered one,

but anyway, not a real issue, 90% of the players won't see a destroyer or shattered unit...

... just reload an older saved game :rofl:

 

[Darkrenown]

if it is in a pocket it doesn't have a supply line.

What about air supply? If a pocketed division is able to be supplied by air then they are probably able to evacuate wounded (and possibly VIPs), so they should be a few troops around to join the rebuilt division.

About shattering, it seems to me that there's little difference in whether a unit shatters in supply or out. In either case the unit is gone and, if you want, you can rebuild what is basicly a fresh unit with the old name back at your capital. If the unit was in supply you can assume a few members were on leave/wounded/being moved about for whatever reason and thus weren't in the battle when the unit was shattered and can be used to stiffen up the rebuilt unit a bit and give it some starting XP (I was going to say "form a core" of the rebuild unit, but that implys a fairly large number of them and it sounds like there won't be many). If the unit was out of supply you assume it's been out of supply for a while and that no one was able to go on leave or be medevaced, so there's no one to help rebuild. You can still re-form the division by building a new one with the old name, but it gets no bonus XP.

Of course, there's a couple of assumptions in there, like a divison could have been in supply for some time and then cut off and shattered so it would have had people outside who could help rebuild (assume when the division was cur off anyone belonging to that unit in another area was reassigned), or a UK div in singapore wouldn't send wounded or troops on leave all the way back to England (assume they were actually on leave locally and were shipped back after the rest of the unit was shatted to join the re-formed unit) but a game of this scale can't track individual soldiers so assumptions have to be made.

 

[unmerged(78917)]

if it is in a pocket it doesn't have a supply line.

Does supply by air factor into this? Germany supplied the 6th Army by air (not completely) and extended its ability to fight. The allies supplied divisions by air especially in Burma so does this or can this factor into the shattering versus destroyed division?

 

[HMS Enterprize]

There was no such thing in HOI2. Only Vicky has Colonial Divisions created in the provinces of the colony from the local pops. HOI2 had everything abstracted from the capital.

Which was one of the most immersion breaking aspects of the game. It was nonsensical deploying the 1st Indian Division in London...

Easiest solution might be to "flag" certain provinces as colony provinces (differentiating them from occupied/random other possessions), and have a colony capital for these colonial posessions (Delhi/Algiers/Damascus.. whatever). Thus, colonial divisons would be handled by a parallel "capital" system of their own, but in the exactly same manner as normal divisions.

An excellent idea.

 

[potski]

If a shattered division is one that exists in name only, and no survivors from the division return, then why does it matter whether or not the unit is cut off from supply when it shatters?

If it's really just a name and maybe a few people who were on vacation or in hospital at the time, then I should be able to rebuild the unit even if it was surrounded. After all, being surrounded doesn't make me forget the name, and the people on vacation or in the hospital weren't surrounded.

Presumably reinforcing a division up to full strength will carry a lower IC cost than constructing it new (otherwise why bother even making a distinction). If that's the case, then it implies that there must be *something* that allows you to rebuild the division more cheaply that would have been lost if the unit was cut off. So what is this something?

If it's cut-off then nothing gets out of the pocket.

The name would not be forgotten. There's nothing to stop you from naming the very next Div you build with the name of the destroyed unit. But it won't actually be a direct continuation in terms of unit history and might not have the same brigade structure or commander. You can choose to completely reproduce a unit that has been destroyed in a pocket, using the same name, Bde structure and commander, if you want, but the game won't do it for you.

We all understand that units in a pocket would get completely destroyed (and here I'm taking complete encirclement, not the partial encirclement at Falaise which still allowed many units to escape). What was not acceptable in HOI2 was the retreating unit which was not cut-off where it's strength drops to zero (especially from air attack) and it suddenly disappears from the map.

But note that with the new supply system and the huge number of provinces, complete encirclement will be very very difficult. In HOI2 you could "encircle" Soviet troops in the Baltic States and cut their supply, but this won't be possible in HOI3 as long as the Soviet troops have access to a port. And rushing forward with Panzer Divs in a pincer movement around Kiev is just as likely to result in the loss of supply to the Panzers as to the Soviet defenders in Kiev, unless you are able to hold all of the provinces around the perimeter of the pocket with infantry.

 

[Darkrenown]

The exact numbers are still subject to testing, but our baseline start number is a green division without a leader will need to lose 50% of its strength. We'll play around with a lot more.

I know you said it's still in testing, but it certainly sounds like a green division without a leader should break much easier than that. Both because unlead green divs should break fairly easily, and to make it so there can be a bigger difference between unlead green troops and well lead venterens.

 

[unmerged(78917)]

But note that with the new supply system and the huge number of provinces, complete encirclement will be very very difficult. In HOI2 you could "encircle" Soviet troops in the Baltic States and cut their supply, but this won't be possible in HOI3 as long as the Soviet troops have access to a port.

But there's more to supply then this! Wouldn't the SU have to have merchant ships in order to carry supplies? I mean just having a port doesn't give you a supplied army...right?

 

[unmerged(31881)]

Smashing idea! (Forgive the pun.) Coincidentally, it deftly sidesteps a difficult game mechanics question with regards to the Great Patriotic War: namely that Red Army divisions often went through multiple re-formations. In HoI3 terms, perhaps "shattered" and rebuilt/reinforced.

In itself, "shattering" will go a great distance to balancing of pre-war and wartime Soviet IC. On the one hand, the USSR mobilized 400+ divisions in six months after Barbarossa. On the other hand in HoI2 to achieve anything like that you have to vastly increase IC, decrease build-times, and/or rely on pre-scripted events.

Thus the two of the most common criticisms of Soviet AI are

(1) It's unstoppable!
(2) It's a pushover!

i think the "shatter" concept will present a more realistic, challenging, historical and fun middle-ground.

The combination of weakness and resilience should make continued operations as important as the opening phase.

Kudos to Johan and his stalwart band for yet another splendid Development Diary. The question of encircled capitals might bear some more explanation, but i'm confident that the new system will add a great deal of fun.

 

[unmerged(58571)]

Two questions:

1. Will combat event chances use an "us vs them" system, or will a country's chance of achieving a positive event be unaffected by its opponents doctrines?

2. If division A defends a province with division B in reserve and division A is forced to retread on day 1 but division B defeats the attackers on day 2, will A still be forced to completely leave the province?

Edit: I also hope that most, if not all, parameters affecting the chance for a division to shatter will me moddable.

 

[Delta107]

Nice indeed. Shattering effect means that in a long war the defender can rebuild its damaged divisions behind the frontline, and reintroduce the in battle again. And I guess that the division information can be accesed in the battlescreen in a more detailed form, since divisions are shown a bit like buttons?