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aono

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We are talking about a time when there was a complete lack of communications and monitoring technology. Large states were largely incapable of monitoring their officials, who could engage in any amount of robbery and graft without the capital knowing about it or being capable of limiting their abuses in any way.
Yes, that's why if you're small you're effective, not rich automatically. We're speaking about time where the main source of riches was taxes and simple production - farming and mining. So you have bigger lands -> you have more people, arable, deposits, forests, etc - you have bigger riches. If small country have some way to make money (it's trade republic for example), or if they cutting their losses (haven't army rely on Emperor to protect them for example) but it wasn't granted. Dozens of german princes was broke. And the wealthest Russian country - Novgorodian republic - was the largest.
Or you're trying to say that colonization was just throwing money into sea?

Implausibility / immersion breaking. It's fine if an imperial free city gets built up to ridiculous levels since that's at least plausible, but Shetland as a sprawling metropolis is something anyone will recognize as patently ridiculous. It's not a huge issue, but it is an issue.
Yup, that's it; that's why I believe MP costs are not good (they create quite ridiculous results, exactly) and I don't like a point for mixing costs.
I thought about events/decisions to convert gold into MP, but it's not good because it's definitly means buying techs, making culture changes and core provinces for gold. Personally I always loved a system with tech bar filling (and player who can lower time needed by his actions), but it's another matter. I thought hard about it to be honest, haven't find another way.
Can gold-cost development be added as a modding option at least? Or it's too complex to code?

How about 10% of the development cost being covered by ducats? So if the next development cost 50 points, it would now only cost 45 points and 5 ducats?
Too difficult for kind of abstract mechanic IMHO.
 
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WeissRaben

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Wait, what? In reallity large empires erected great cities. London became LONDON as a capital of rich country. Russian Empire bulit cities in Siberia.
So yes, you collect richies -> you build your land. To enforce laws, modernize or create decent centralization system you need to have administrative efficiency, but not to build one more city, one more farm, one more mine, one more garrison. That was the way big empires did it!
No. Rich countries developed. Russia? Russia has been horrendously backwards in infrastructure and population density all the way to WWII.
 
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Castrolol

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Development is not going to change from a pure monarch point cost, period. It'd have far too much bleed-over with buildings and would defeat the entire point of letting small countries develop when they can't expand.
The problem is that development rewards countries for doing nothing. Countries that sit around doing nothing and get lucky enough to have a god-king can enjoy growing stronger with no risk or agency. There's no tactical thought or skill, merely sitting on speed 5 and mashing development every couple months. Anyone who's tried to play "tall" knows how boring it is and nobody could think it's an adequate replacement for expansion.

Monarch Points remain a currency that can barely be influenced while ducats are a much more influenceable currency that is considered completely inferior and worthless when compared to MP. Ducats only serve limited use in maintaining an army/navy (which are often limited by manpower and merc pool), constructing buildings (which are often useless without development) hiring advisors (to generate the infinitely better MP) and creating a buffer for certain negative events. Once the player hits the critical mass of ducats needed to maintain those services they no longer serve much point. There's essentially little to motivate the player on maintaining a strong economy aside from protecting your MP pool.

Linking development to ducats creates positive feedback loops that rewards players that maintain their economy, makes ducats a significantly more useful currency and makes sure that countries need to expand their sphere of influence to maintain their relevancy. This can be easily coupled with a centralisation mechanic that offers bonuses (and certain maluses) on reforms which difficulties scale on nation size. Small countries will be more easily able to centralise their countries (which offers easier development) if they're willing to commit which will help them compete with majors who will stagnant if they choose to ignore investing resources into centralising their realm.

This still allows countries to "play tall" but actually forces player agency and more importantly adds depth to peacetime and simple domestic policies which the fan base has been begging for and Common Sense failed to deliver on.
This also allows development to be much more dynamic with factors/events that lower or raise development. Right now with MP being such a sought after resource losing development in a province would come as a harsh and unfair blow. Instead having it dynamic while linked to a much more flexible currency which the player has a much greater influence on isn't nearly as painful and would introduce some depth to a game often criticised for being shallow.

The other issue with MP development is locking low technological groups out of what should be a core gameplay mechanic (although apparently it isn't because it's locked behind a paywall). Western to Ottoman tech tend to be completely drowning in MP with nothing to spend it on apart from development while ROTW nations either forgo technological advances (like dip tech) to dump into provinces or ignore development completely.

A lot of people believe that the game is becoming over reliant on MP and while I share that thought, I think MP makes perfect sense for the more abstract elements of EU4 like technology since it's something that was rather opaque in the early modern era with a number of contributing factors that would extremely hard to simulate in EU4. However being able to will a city out of nowhere which then for some reason stagnates your cultural and technological growth is just not a good mechanic in either a gameplay or historical sense.

tldr: just let us mod it. srsly.
 
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Yes, that's why if you're small you're effective, not rich automatically. We're speaking about time where the main source of riches was taxes and simple production - farming and mining. So you have bigger lands -> you have more people, arable, deposits, forests, etc - you have bigger riches.

Yes it does. Mining and agriculture, especially when we are talking abou intensive development, very much depends on how effective public goods, like property rights, the state can provide.
 

aono

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No. Rich countries developed. Russia? Russia has been horrendously backwards in infrastructure and population density all the way to WWII.
Sankt-Peterburg was first-class european capital for example. Siberian cities - from Ekaterinburg to Perm, and later - was builded that way too, and it costs.
Russia was just so rich that it could afford effeciency as good as western German princes AND stay rich.
Oh, yes, one more - Russia didn't lose a single war with european country in game time scale. Well, but Sweden in 16th century.

Yes it does. Mining and agriculture, especially when we are talking abou intensive development, very much depends on how effective public goods, like property rights, the state can provide.
Can you mine nothing and raise crops without ariable?
 
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keynes2.0

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Development is not going to change from a pure monarch point cost, period. It'd have far too much bleed-over with buildings and would defeat the entire point of letting small countries develop when they can't expand.

Why not just make it so that Blobbing doesn't have riduculous money and manpower benefits? Back in EUIII if you conquered a random province of a different culture and religion then you'd have decades where it had revolt risk and you were lucky to get 1/10th the money from a core province from it...
 
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aono

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Or maybe it's worth consider to return into "bar filling" system with MP allowing to put modifiers? For tech and development?
 

queermobile

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No. Rich countries developed. Russia? Russia has been horrendously backwards in infrastructure and population density all the way to WWII.

Being backward doesn't mean the Russian empire was poor by any stretch of the imagination. The typical person may have been destitute but that has to do more with inequality and disgustingly corrupt imperial administration than any lack of resources. Not to mention a tricontinental empire which required industrial transportation to be able to connect together.

I would personally go so far as to say that there should probably be a smaller bonus (maybe maxing at 25% instead of the capital 50%) for provincial capitals, provided that the new regions are going to have capital provinces. Though I'm not sure if this would be applicable except for nations like Russia.

I would like to see something akin to bureaucratic effiency based upon distance to capital as existed in MEIOU implemented as well, even if it's just based on region by region using the already existing autonomy mechanic. 0% autonomy in every owned province would be a boon for small nations without them having to overdevelop.
 
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No. Rich countries developed. Russia? Russia has been horrendously backwards in infrastructure and population density all the way to WWII.

Russia was busy expanding like crazy by conventional means, and didn't really invest in really developping the land until Victoria 2 era.
 
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Back in EUIII if you conquered a random province of a different culture and religion then you'd have decades where it had revolt risk and you were lucky to get 1/10th the money from a core province from it...
And yet, it was still sane, sensible, and profitable to play according to the doctrine "if you are at zero infamy, you are wasting the world's forgiveness" and take new territory as fast as you could burn the infamy from taking it, even after the 5.2 patch rescaled manpower recovery to a period of ten years instead of two.
 

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And yet, it was still sane, sensible, and profitable to play according to the doctrine "if you are at zero infamy, you are wasting the world's forgiveness" and take new territory as fast as you could burn the infamy from taking it, even after the 5.2 patch rescaled manpower recovery to a period of ten years instead of two.

And nothing changed in EU4 (regarding optimum doctrine). But you can core within three years and convert in 2 next years and sometimes even new culture magically becomes your "accepted culture".
 
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And nothing changed in EU4 (regarding optimum doctrine). But you can core within three years and convert in 2 next years and sometimes even new culture magically becomes your "accepted culture".
Yes but don't forget about Local Autonomy. Unless you're willing to fight lots of rebels, you'll typically hit the +25 LA on all conquered territory. That tends to set you at 75% LA, sometimes even higher. And LA falls slowly prior to unlocking later government forms (which basically just corrects for the fact that you won't have the territory as long since the game is half+ over).
 

keynes2.0

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Yes but don't forget about Local Autonomy. Unless you're willing to fight lots of rebels, you'll typically hit the +25 LA on all conquered territory. That tends to set you at 75% LA, sometimes even higher. And LA falls slowly prior to unlocking later government forms (which basically just corrects for the fact that you won't have the territory as long since the game is half+ over).

So what about local autonomy? It's less of a hassle then uncored territory was in EUIII. You are still getting a fraction of taxation and still getting trade node income from the territory. And within a very short span of time, newly conquered territory is peaceful and loyal and autonomy can fall. And really, if local autonomy was so bad, why do people talk about raising autonomy as an obvious strategy?
 

Castrolol

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So what about local autonomy? It's less of a hassle then uncored territory was in EUIII. You are still getting a fraction of taxation and still getting trade node income from the territory. And within a very short span of time, newly conquered territory is peaceful and loyal and autonomy can fall. And really, if local autonomy was so bad, why do people talk about raising autonomy as an obvious strategy?
Autonomy is even less relevant when you start getting higher government ranks or more advanced governments. It tends to tick down so fast that you can spam it in any regions that may suffer from rebel problems and have that area back to almost full strength in a couple years. If anything it makes expansion easier.

A rebel overhaul that changes them from mindless doom stacks to dynamic revolter tags which take over sympathetic regions and can actually engage in real diplomacy with their neighbours would go a decent way in slowing down expansion.
Blobs will have to slow down and consolidate their empire and make sure that troublesome regions are brought into the fold instead of just slapping down a couple of rebel stacks before nationalism fades. It would also better simulate historical revolts like Persia and the Netherlands instead of having to artificially force them with DHEs.
 
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Von Consul

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This again eh?

I still say the matter of development is more readily explained by changing the name. Development is not the absolute level of 'wealth' in a region but instead how much authority the state has to extract said wealth.

Why you could even make the development of 'London' increase as the empire grows, but till you spend the monarch points to raise your control you can't dip into that wealth.
 

aono

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I still say the matter of development is more readily explained by changing the name. Development is not the absolute level of 'wealth' in a region but instead how much authority the state has to extract said wealth.
Sorry, but you're describing autonomy as it is. And I would love to see autonomy to be more crippling and MP-draining; so if you have money you can create bigger economy, if you have MP you can create more efficient economy.
Also you can notice that development increase base values, not efficiency. And base tax is a stat for province. Imagine a situation: development of said London bring big tax there, so later... let's say France go and take London. Will it benefit from London development even if they have bad, bad thier own modifiers to efficeincy and autonomy? Yup, it will; 1 base tax London will be worse than 50 base tax London. And France didn't throw a point into development of London, did they?
So, by the way it's shown (and even with gfx - bigger development cause city to became bigger) development IS the absolute level of "wealth" in a region. Your ability to take that wealth is your administrative system, and it should be upgraded with MP, I believe. Gold for more development, MP for more ability to use that development, what's wrong?
 

victimizer

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Can you mine nothing and raise crops without ariable?

Of course arable land is great. But I'm not talking about aggregate wealth, land and population. I'm talking about intensive growth --- e.g. what "development" is more or less supposed to represent, at least mostly.

It's a bit difficult to say what the "development" actually stands for. I would imagine production development represents the ruler making new arrangements with local businesses, allowing them to expand production.

Military development probably means the ruler sending his military people down to the province to organize more refresher training and to expand reserves.

Administrative development perhaps represents the central government hiring more tax farmers with new tolls, dues and such..
 
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aono

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Of course ariable land is great. But I'm not talking about aggragate wealth, land and population. I'm talking about intensive growth --- e.g. what "development" is supposed to represent.
But that's not how it works in game time scale. You're raising province development by using more land in said province. You're make more land within province borders from empty wilderness into cities, villages, ariables and mines. It's not intensive growth as we know it today, not better using already used land, but extensive growth within province.
That's base tax/production/manpower that growth by development, not efficiency. Latter has their own representation - tax efficiency and production efficiency.
 

victimizer

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But that's not how it works in game time scale. You're raising province development by using more land in said province.

Well, it doesn't make much sense though.

I mean, expanding taxation doesn't use land. Military development and production wouldn't either. And you can't expand the population suddenly by state fiat.

Administrative development probably expands the state taxation of peasantry, while also investing in improving their conditions and the production of staple crops, which can then be used to pay those taxes. It could also represent expanding the local money supply and financial arrangements, which help the peasants to pay their taxes, while also making their farming lives easier.


That's base tax/production/manpower that growth by development, not efficiency. Latter has their own representation - tax efficiency and production efficiency.

Yes, but those are global modifiers. Meaning they represent business and government administration developments, like book keeping, new business entity types, and other institutional developments. New ideas that can be disseminated fairly rapidly without government involvement.
 
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aono

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I mean, expanding taxation doesn't use land. Military development and production wouldn't either. And you can't expand the population suddenly by state fiat.
First of all it does. You need to put more people to tax them, and you need put them somewhere, not just add them to number. To upgrade production in that times you need to expand pastures and farms (and production of staple crops is, well, production in EU4, represented by Grain trade goods). To make province better military you need to create garrisons and marches. That's how it worked that times, that's why colonial rush skyrocketed colonial powers income.

And you can't expand the population suddenly by state fiat.
Oh but you can. Thing is it's not the times of modern taxation system, there was a big, big numbers of people who didn't pay taxes and wasn't included to normal economy at all. If you want to expand population somewhere you just offer them lands to use.

Administrative development probably expands the state taxation of peasantry, while also investing in improving their conditions and the production of staple crops, which can then be used to pay those taxes. It could also represent expanding the local money supply and financial arrangements.
Why it stays after province changes it's owner then? Let's say Russia with BAD kind of administrative efficiency conquer London with high level of development. Will said development level drop? Will BASE tax, production and manpower (stats that are upped by development system) dropped?
No they won't. Effective tax, production and manpower are province stats, not country, they stays no matter what country rules province.

Yes, but those are global modifiers. Meaning they represent business and government administration developments, like book keeping, new business entity types, and other institutional developments. New ideas that can be disseminated fairly rapidly without government involvement.
Sorry, what parts of "Local modifiers" slips away from you in given links?
There are global modifiers to efficiency, there are local ones. Quite realistic I'd say.