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King

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Well King, as several others beside me have pointed out, luxury goods is the one niche where (a few) artisans have survived up until our days. Is this somehow reflected? :)

Depends what the Capitalists do, if they build luxury goods factories then artisans will find thier niche in everyday goods, if they build everyday goods factroeis then artisans will find thier niche in luxuries.
 

Barón Rojo

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Who said they couldn't be liberal?
You said that the conservatism is the 'natural' ideology of the artisans before the fascism appears. I'm saying that is the liberalism at least until they can vote in a democracy with full vote rights.
 

King

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You said that the conservatism is the 'natural' ideology of the artisans before the fascism appears. I'm saying that is the liberalism at least until they can vote in a democracy with full vote rights.

Yes that's thier natural ideology but that does nto mean thye will never consider other ideolgies depending on the circumstances.
 

Barón Rojo

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Another thing in reference to the China tariffs mentioned before. There will be any representation of the closed markets of China, Japan or Korea? Would be nice if the player can force them to open their markets to him with the 'gunboat diplomacy'.
 

telesien

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Well your first point is not 100% true. You see if our Artisan is not doing well finiancally then he will have a higher militancy. If he develoves and starts to get luxuries then his militancy will drop slowly. Although if a few hundred artisans develove into a 10,000 man craftsmen pop then the overall militancy increase for that POP will be very small.

As for the second point is precisely how we see them as being, the lower middle classes, trying to be middle class but not quite having the wealth to do so.

Also to process of devolving can be understood as adapting to newer situation, where the former artisan just gives up and stops thinking about the past. He no longer consideres himself as part of middle class and so his demands are lower (being part of some group really influences your demand, so when you are part of different group, you have different demand).

The second point is a big economical and political problem even now. All governments must juggle with three balls in order to to keep the balance. Keeping high GDP mainly by attracting new international firms and keeping the current ones (high chance of private investment), protecting working part of population - preferably the more numerous and more loud blue collars (lowering militancy of labourers, craftsmen and farmers) and finally supporting small or family bussinesses (artisan problem). And the consequences are the same IRL and in the game. Many argue, that small bussiness can't be as effective as big ones and supporting them lowers the overall productivity. But government doesn't want to have militant middle class and most of all, the majority of "artisans" would be forces to move to lower class, which is also something the government doesn't want to (middle class is the best source of tax income, unlike lower class). Yes, the third ball usually has the lowest priority, but if you look at the problem this way, you will find out how well the game is designed in this respect. Just read something about the policy of developing countries to attract big firms by providing various direct and indirect subsidies. They very often lead to struggling "artisans" becoming "craftsmen." The industrialisation in 21st century strikes again.

So I feel like PI now creates something, which can be used even for more modern period without any major change. I even start to think, that it would be very intersting to make modern day mod, since the gameplay basics for it are already present.
 

RedRalphWiggum

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Yes there is scope for micormanging your sliders and in fact part of our goal was to make 100% education not such a no brainer.

I'm glad to hear this. One thing about V1 that wasn't so great is that there was really one goal for every country finance-wise - to get every slider up as high as possible. It sounds like this will not be the case in V2.

Actually I get the overall impression countries are all going to have quite a disticnt feel to them in V2.
 

King

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I'm glad to hear this. One thing about V1 that wasn't so great is that there was really one goal for every country finance-wise - to get every slider up as high as possible. It sounds like this will not be the case in V2.

Actually I get the overall impression countries are all going to have quite a disticnt feel to them in V2.

You have a two part goal in with game design. First up you are trying to set up good choices. If we take an EU2 event example form Spain Choice A Yes or Choice B No. WIth choice A you get all those cool explorers and things like that, with choice B you get to do nothing for the rest of the game (ok I exagerate here but you see what I am getting at). Now the original Victoria was good in one respect that you had several game styles you could play, several goals, conquering the world was one, but industralising a minor power was fun, turning a mid ranked power in a great power was fun. We want to keep that aspect to Victoria 2 and add to it, giving you more choices that aren't simple choose A is you aren't stupid.

The second goal with game design is to setup that different countries offer different challenges. Now in all our games countries are not equal, they have diffferent locations sizes etc so there are different challanges to countries just by which one you choose. However the Victoria POP system adds an additional layer of difference even before the game begins. Allowing countries to play differently just by setup,
 

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Cool. I think its good that while a country will have historical constraints (by the nature of the start of the game), there are still roads open to it.

When you say not making the choices too obvious, it makes me think of the new system of bureaucrats/clergy... I'm thinking for some countries, like Russia, trying to industrialise and change the structure of society as fast as possible actually could be a disastrous strategy, no?
 

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Cool. I think its good that while a country will have historical constraints (by the nature of the start of the game), there are still roads open to it.

When you say not making the choices too obvious, it makes me think of the new system of bureaucrats/clergy... I'm thinking for some countries, like Russia, trying to industrialise and change the structure of society as fast as possible actually could be a disastrous strategy, no?

Well as we see it in 1836 Russia is the great power. It's huge, it has a vast population a huge army, but it is backward and finds it harder to adapt. Essentially it has a weak bureaucracy, low literacy, not much chance increase literacy, a small industrial class,etc. etc.. So as such it starts behind the other powers in adapting to the new era of industralisation. It therefor faces more choices with wider trade offs.
 

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Well as we see it in 1836 Russia is the great power. It's huge, it has a vast population a huge army, but it is backward and finds it harder to adapt. Essentially it has a weak bureaucracy, low literacy, not much chance increase literacy, a small industrial class,etc. etc.. So as such it starts behind the other powers in adapting to the new era of industralisation. It therefor faces more choices with wider trade offs.

Some things never change, eh? You can say most of that about it today... this is nice and historical too, because getting the power/stability trade off wrong is what cost the Czar his throne. I may have to see what a USSR that started in 1906 would be like.

My favorite game to play in V1 was taking a backward country with potential (like Persia, Colombia, Greece) and making it strong, I never had much interest in playing the big boys. This may change.
 

Quarto

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Some things never change, eh? You can say most of that about it today... this is nice and historical too, because getting the power/stability trade off wrong is what cost the Czar his throne. I may have to see what a USSR that started in 1906 would be like.
...Even more backwards?


Meanwhile, judging from what we've seen so far, playing the uncivilised nations is going to be a much more interesting experience in the original game - you may actually have something to do, as opposed to sitting around and waiting for a hundred years to pass. It'll be great to take Thailand or Ethiopia out for a spin.
 

Evans

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Okay, so trying to rationalise this - the Artisans don't really represent the producers, but rather the smalltime capitalists of the petit-bourgeoisie? In that sense, they're not the workers themselves, but rather small-time employers and owners of 'craft' based business concerns (including presumably those of distribution which they traditionally represented).

Makes a lot more sense to me that way, but is this what the devs have in mind?
 

RedRalphWiggum

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...Even more backwards?

The post-war USSR was the least backwards, relatively, that Russia has been in hundreds of years.

Meanwhile, judging from what we've seen so far, playing the uncivilised nations is going to be a much more interesting experience in the original game - you may actually have something to do, as opposed to sitting around and waiting for a hundred years to pass. It'll be great to take Thailand or Ethiopia out for a spin.

True, and we haven't even got to hear about the political sysem yet.
 
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My favorite game to play in V1 was taking a backward country with potential (like Persia, Colombia, Greece) and making it strong, I never had much interest in playing the big boys. This may change.

Oh, happy days of uniting India (on VIP) with Hyderabad and fighting with British Colonialists :D
 

unmerged(164401)

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Some things never change, eh? You can say most of that about it today... this is nice and historical too, because getting the power/stability trade off wrong is what cost the Czar his throne. I may have to see what a USSR that started in 1906 would be like.

My favorite game to play in V1 was taking a backward country with potential (like Persia, Colombia, Greece) and making it strong, I never had much interest in playing the big boys. This may change.

totally agreed. i really do hope the big powers get a good challenge there.

Okay, so trying to rationalise this - the Artisans don't really represent the producers, but rather the smalltime capitalists of the petit-bourgeoisie? In that sense, they're not the workers themselves, but rather small-time employers and owners of 'craft' based business concerns (including presumably those of distribution which they traditionally represented).

Makes a lot more sense to me that way, but is this what the devs have in mind?

that would probably make sense if the Artisans start producing things like cars and ironclads. they would need a big captital for that stuff.
 

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(...)
When you say not making the choices too obvious, it makes me think of the new system of bureaucrats/clergy... I'm thinking for some countries, like Russia, trying to industrialise and change the structure of society as fast as possible actually could be a disastrous strategy, no?

I like this way of seeing Vicky2. You have lot of possibilities, but if you try to play too straightforward you'll find problems. More likely to find finally a failed state than a modern Russia (or China, Japan...), unless you play strategically.

I'm very curious about politics, and the rebel system (I wish we could have some advances from In Nomine, taking some elements from Rome civil wars), because those elements would be essential for the idea of 'failed states'.
 

kaspar42

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Really interesting DD :)

But shouldn't Istanbul still be called Constantinople in this period? At least according to Wikipedia, the international name change didn't occur until 1930.
 

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The post-war USSR was the least backwards, relatively, that Russia has been in hundreds of years.
Well, see, here's the thing - you're comparing the 20th century USSR to 19th century Russia, while I'm thinking about what Russia would look like in the 20th century. There is no doubt at all that the USSR was more industrially developed than 19th century Russia - however, that huge leap forward the USSR took in the 20th century didn't happen because of communist rule, but in spite of it.
 

RedRalphWiggum

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Well, see, here's the thing - you're comparing the 20th century USSR to 19th century Russia, while I'm thinking about what Russia would look like in the 20th century. There is no doubt at all that the USSR was more industrially developed than 19th century Russia - however, that huge leap forward the USSR took in the 20th century didn't happen because of communist rule, but in spite of it.

Really? Because I would have been very surprised to see any non-communist government implement the gargantuan industrial expansion of the 30s, as would pretty much any historian.

I'm not comparing 19thC Russia with 20thC USSR - I'm comparing how advanced and industralised Russia was compared to the rest of Europe in the 19thC to how industrialised the USSR was compared to the rest of Europe post-WW2. Russia/USSR was never as strong or scientifically advanced compared to Europe as it was in the 1950s and 60s.
 
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