Developer Diary 6 – What has Changed with Production and Unemployment

[Raph]

How will resource stockpiles work? Will products produced in factories be sold automatically (like how inputs are bought automatically), or will you have the possibility to choose to stockpile some you might need? Logically, since you have no control over employment and production of goods, I'm guessing you'll have no control over whether they sell them or not (or, well, they'll just sell them). However, having the ability to control exports could let you do very cool things by manipulating supply and demand and such, since the effects on the economy and POPs might be real dramatic.

I guess tariffs is one way to do that, export subsidies to push down prices, lowering profits for foreign factories, causing unemployment and possibly revolt.

 

[Orinsul]

First off all of its brilliant, the systems seems to be brilliant, particular the factories self-management but the screenshots troubling.

Will Fascists [and other extreme parties] be forced to abolish the monarchy for a republic? As they were forced no matter what towards presidential dictatorships in the first, that one one of the worst and most obvious failings of the first's system. Not only would flash-and-circle fascists never abolish the monarchy thats just a historical side-quibble, in terms of the game there should be the choice and the reason.
A party coming to power doesnt mean it has the support of the people or the parties to change the government, perhaps with a three quarters majority vote but still, and furthermore it would necessaries be to its political advantage to do so. A decision rather than a forced and no option-out event as it was in Victoria. And a decision that launches an event or maybe an interface with the option of changing the flag, government structure, reforms etc with the option of each separately and for some of them more than one option for it. maybe a couple different names to choose from as thats changeable.
So rather than being forced, railroaded i think the term is, to something illogical and annoying you would have some manner of control over it.

As to the flag, the way the flash-and-circle is used, with the Union Jack retained but a small token to show party and provide the desired variety to the game is perfect. just with all the talk against it in favour of one from a movie i just thought id take the time to voice support for it.


Also is that similar to what the final state layout for the map will be? only in Victoria greater london being more or less in its own state was great in terms of factory placement and immigration in terms of the population redistribution, growth and all that. and from the looks of this its not staying that way but that said who knows if yourve even started on the final map yet. well you probably

 

[unmerged(91061)]

Brilliant changes King, thanks for the Diary.

 

[unmerged(164401)]

oh god,

this is good news. i really love how this game is shaping up. just love the macromanagment feel of the game. the screen shot is nice too. i hope the map doesn't get too crowded with those 3d structures. any way, keep up the good work.

oh and merry x mas. King. thanks again. any hint for the first 2010 dd?

 

[unmerged(72651)]

World Economy question

King, how will the differences in worker pay be modeled; some countries pay their workers less, so they can drive the cost of consumer goods down. However, some countries have better technology so they can drive the cost of goods down too. If I remember correctly, in the original victoria the output of goods gave more money because it increased production. For Vicky 2, couldn't you tie worker compensation to literacy values to offset the lower production, thus giving these factories more money.
This seems important now because factories need to supply themselves now, so an illiterate country or county can really hurt a developing country. I just think there needs to be balance between developed countries with higher technology vs undeveloped countries with lower tech but a cheaper workforce.

 

[Karri]

Factors cost cement...? How about machineparts? Steel? Timber? Duct tape?

 

[RELee]

Factors cost cement...? How about machineparts? Steel? Timber? Duct tape?

You can only find duct (duck) tape in HOI.

 

[bbasgen]

The capis get a share of the profits, as do the workers.

The question is: how do capitalists accumulate money when there is no factory?

 

[alvaro]

The question is: how do capitalists accumulate money when there is no factory?

and how do capitalist appear in the first place?

 

[Cinéad IV]

This is shaping up to be everything I hoped Victoria 1 could be. This is a much, MUCH more realistic depiction of how an economy works, and I'm dying to play it.

Couple of things though King: will capis in Victoria 2 be more inclined to expand an existing factory than they were in Vicky Revolutions? Also, given that factories are now responsible for supplying themselves, how will this affect the way government stockpiles are handled? Will the state now have to buy stockpiles of goods from its own factories rather than simply waiting for them to accumulate?

 

[KonradRichtmark]

Since I definately won't answer I am not going to say that it is the number of craftsmen and not the number of craftsmen POPs.

Then I'm not going to praise Paradox for their greatness in making this game design decision

Capitalists continue to have the effect of reducing factory inputs regardless of the government economic policy. So they still have a, more limited, role in command economy.

Is the income division between craftsmen and capitalists different in a socialistic command economy than in a market economy? Or, is it assumed that the "capitalist" POPs (which I take it would represent politruks and high-level factory managers) would be just as evil and exploitative of the proletariat as the old capitalists?

 

[jamhaw]

Nice to see you got the shield switching working! I like that we can even have nations changing names, no more communist United Kingdoms! Have you chosen a non-fascist republican flag for Britain yet?

Oh, that screen was fucking good.

How many fictional flags you added to the game?

This flag is best for a fascist Britain:

I am fairly confident that is actually a French symbol. Alan Moore himself would most probably prefer the Mosleyite one (or NF or which was the symbol for Norsefire in his book if I remember right, yes I really disliked the film version). But from what I have read that picture would actually be more appropriate as a French Fascist symbol.

Having now checked Wikipedia it is apparently very simialer to the Cross of Lorraine. It was used by the Free French during WWII.

 

[unmerged(181726)]

and how do capitalist appear in the first place?

They probably auto-promote from clerks/craftsmen/aristocrats(?) if there are available capitalist slots in the state.

The question is: how do capitalists accumulate money when there is no factory?

The way I read the DD, I would presume that capitalists in a state without factories, will: a) build one if they have money, b) migrate if there are any states with factories that can accommodate more capitalists, c) auto-demote. But we'll have to wait for King to give a definite answer.

This is shaping up to be everything I hoped Victoria 1 could be. This is a much, MUCH more realistic depiction of how an economy works, and I'm dying to play it.

+1

Also, given that factories are now responsible for supplying themselves, how will this affect the way government stockpiles are handled? Will the state now have to buy stockpiles of goods from its own factories rather than simply waiting for them to accumulate?

Almost certainty you will have to buy them with cash. Paradox seems to be moving away from "money magically disappears / is created type of mechanisms," and goods stockpiling without payment is one of those. Plus, it could easily cause bankruptcies, say if you place steamers >999.... then workers at the steamer plant starve and migrate, and the plant closes before you realize what the problem is.... not good design.

 

[Drogan]

wow this sounds very awesome... Can I conscript all those unemployed pops into soldiers?

 

[Fire_Unionist]

Today we are going to talk about how we created unemployment.

:rofl:

 

[Sebastian Jarl]

You choose which factories you subsidies or not, by default in a command economy all factories are set to be subsidised but you can switch this off if you so wish. In Victoria (and thus Victoria 2) you can set your tarriffs to subsidise exports, to make them more competative on the world market. You still have an internal market, as in Victoria 1. So regardless of your rank your factories get to buy your home produced goods first.

I'm assuming this goes for both primary and secondary sector of the economy? If that's the case, I'm sorry for being so sceptical in the thread about the world market. Combined with factories buying their own goods this certainly seems like a very elegant solution, and show us fans how silly we are when think we can easily come up with better solutions than the producers.

Two questions. You mentioned minimum wages increasing the cost of workers. Similarly, yet quite different, will other social reforms, specifically banning child labour and granting pensions, decrease efficiency, mark some pops as ineligible for work, or otherwise reflect that a smaller amount of people is now working?

Will dominions and masters share internal markets, or even better, have a diplomatic option that allows them to do that? I completely understand that engine limitations might make it too hard or impossible. Yet it sure would be a great way to represent that there was a lot of trade between Britain and her dominions, and I'm guessing the same would be true for any colony granted responsible government peacefully. After all, they were a part of the domestic market, and I'm doubting Home Rule would erase those trade routes with a simple pen-stroke.

Anyhow, thanks for the diary, you've almost made me wish the holidays would end, so I could get more of them, though I'm sure a good dose of pinnekjøtt, fireworks and Heir to the Throne will cure me of such silly notions. I hope you and the rest of Paradox have a happy Yuletide!

 

[takedown47]

nice, i love it already. to King; are the tech investment sliders from EUIII going to make a come back? too soon to ask this question or have the busy elves at Paradox started hand crafting technologies already?

 

[Orinsul]

nice, i love it already. to King; are the tech investment sliders from EUIII going to make a come back? too soon to ask this question or have the busy elves at Paradox started hand crafting technologies already?

i hope not, Victoria had a superior research system to EU, why trade down?

 

[KonradRichtmark]

Seconded. EU has a dumbed down research system. Simple abstract mechanisms are brilliant when they produce realistic results, but are arbitrary and stupid when they don't.

 

[unmerged(181726)]

Two questions. You mentioned minimum wages increasing the cost of workers. Similarly, yet quite different, will other social reforms, specifically banning child labour and granting pensions, decrease efficiency, mark some pops as ineligible for work, or otherwise reflect that a smaller amount of people is now working?

I don't know about child labor laws, but pensions/unemployment insurance/health care shouldn't impact efficiency (it does IRL, but the game doesn't have utility maximizing pops, so no labor-leisure or consumption smoothing decisions, still, a good first order approximation is for them to have no efficiency impact). They should be a pure money transfer from your taxes to your poor/middle class pops (although Aristocrats receiving unemployment insurance would be hilarious! :rofl.

Safety regulations and max work hours should depress efficiency, but not cost money (other than bureaucracy upkeep), since they aren't money transfers.

Another interesting thing about this, is that if minimum wage laws are set to say $1 per day, then a factory employing 5 craftsmen and making a $4.8 profit will employ 4 craftsmen at $1.2 rather than 5 at $0.96. That is, minimum wages might, correctly, generate unemployment in low productivity economies! The more I think about this DD, the more interesting this game appears.

Will dominions and masters share internal markets, or even better, have a diplomatic option that allows them to do that? I completely understand that engine limitations might make it too hard or impossible. Yet it sure would be a great way to represent that there was a lot of trade between Britain and her dominions, and I'm guessing the same would be true for any colony granted responsible government peacefully. After all, they were a part of the domestic market, and I'm doubting Home Rule would erase those trade routes with a simple pen-stroke.

This is an interesting sugestion. It only happened after the mid 1920s when Britain actually implemented import tariffs sufficiently high to make imperial preference feasible (the pre-WWI import tariff to e.g. India was 3%, which wasn't a barrier to anyone). But it would make dominions an interesting strategic choice.