Developer Diary 5 – POPs, Bureaucrats and the Clergy

[Sute]{h]

With education firmly placed in the hands of the clergy the clergy must change if you go atheist. How do you expect to go about this? Do all clergy POPs in a country become atheist as well? Or do they remain orthodox (or whatever)? In essence do the clergy convert?

Personally I'd prefer that the clergy remain orthodox. Once you go atheist you get an event/decision allowing you to convert a small percentage of your bureaucrats/clerks to clergy. These will be the core of the new atheist clergy/educators. That way the old religious clergy can still be represented and fight the atheist government.

Also if this should make any sense the effect of clergy with a different faith than the national faith should be drastically lower. Something like 10% of the normal value. This would also reflect that empires rarely supported clergy of a different faith in the colonies.

About POP income I think clergy should gain a small income bonus from POP's of their own faith in the same province as well. Most faiths have a tradition of contributing to their own church. Simply have every POP pay 5% or so of their income to their local clergy POPs. For atheist clergy this would reflect paying for private education.

 

[unmerged(9524)]

Just discovered this game is coming out.

Just read all the stickies and lots of comments.
Really great infos, great screenshots and great ideas behind this game, maybe there is a game that will allow me to stop playing Vicky, and that game surely has to be Vicky 2

Really looking forward to playing this game

Gio

PS: didn't remember I had an account on these boards

 

[Arilou]

With education firmly placed in the hands of the clergy the clergy must change if you go atheist. How do you expect to go about this? Do all clergy POPs in a country become atheist as well? Or do they remain orthodox (or whatever)? In essence do the clergy convert?

Personally I'd prefer that the clergy remain orthodox. Once you go atheist you get an event/decision allowing you to convert a small percentage of your bureaucrats/clerks to clergy. These will be the core of the new atheist clergy/educators. That way the old religious clergy can still be represented and fight the atheist government.

Also if this should make any sense the effect of clergy with a different faith than the national faith should be drastically lower. Something like 10% of the normal value. This would also reflect that empires rarely supported clergy of a different faith in the colonies.

About POP income I think clergy should gain a small income bonus from POP's of their own faith in the same province as well. Most faiths have a tradition of contributing to their own church. Simply have every POP pay 5% or so of their income to their local clergy POPs. For atheist clergy this would reflect paying for private education.

I'd make some kind of formula based on government policy. Eg. Moralism increases effectiveness of "State-religion" clergy, Pluralism gives a smaller advantage but minority clergy get a bit more efficient, secularism makes everyone equal and atheism lowers effectiveness of non-atheist/secular clergy.

 

[ashandresash]

King, we've read in DD that Bureaucrats and Clergy will receive their incomes from the state, and a general statement that POPs will have their incomes depending what they do. What about aristocrats? From "taxing" RGOs profit on their state? Or a maybe a part of poorer rural POPs incomes?

 

[King]

King, we've read in DD that Bureaucrats and Clergy will receive their incomes from the state, and a general statement that POPs will have their incomes depending what they do. What about aristocrats? From "taxing" RGOs profit on their state? Or a maybe a part of poorer rural POPs incomes?

Subject for later developer diaries.

 

[unmerged(181770)]

In Qing Dynasty, with pitifully few bureaucrats(no more than 20,000 in 1880), landlords tax the poor instead of bureaucrats, and then they submit a portion of taxpayment to local magistrates. Local magistrates "put" some in their own pockets and the rest is turned over to upper authorities. I'm quite eager to see how Vicky2 deals with taxation in Qing DYN.

 

[alvaro]

I'd make some kind of formula based on government policy. Eg. Moralism increases effectiveness of "State-religion" clergy, Pluralism gives a smaller advantage but minority clergy get a bit more efficient, secularism makes everyone equal and atheism lowers effectiveness of non-atheist/secular clergy.

maybe a social reform for public education would do it.

 

[unmerged(68110)]

@ashandresash: If Vicky II gets the aid of an economist (preferably someone with a political formation), aristocrats should have their income tied to the land rent. Quite a big subject, particularly in Great Britain where it was VERY high.

 

[unmerged(131989)]

We had a long discussion about should under athiest government forms should someone like bureaucrats do the educating. We rejected this on interface and processing grounds. The bureaucrats do the administrating they get their money from the administration slider. Clergy do the educating, they get their money from the education slider. From a player persepective you can see straight away what is going on. From our point of view, and remember we haven't forgotton what people said about HoI3, it simplifies the payment calculation freeing up complexity for areas we felt over all were more important.

Could it not be both clerks and clergy do educating, and then there is an event or decision (perhaps with trigger conditions of a constitution/religious policy change) which changes the effectiveness of them at educating the masses (much like one of the inventions in Victoria)? This might be a good compromise on the programming issues which could be faced.

 

[unmerged(148761)]

We had a long discussion about should under athiest government forms should someone like bureaucrats do the educating. We rejected this on interface and processing grounds. The bureaucrats do the administrating they get their money from the administration slider. Clergy do the educating, they get their money from the education slider. From a player persepective you can see straight away what is going on. From our point of view, and remember we haven't forgotton what people said about HoI3, it simplifies the payment calculation freeing up complexity for areas we felt over all were more important.

What I don't understand is this: Higher literacy= higher conciousness; higher conciousness for laborers/craftsmen= socialist ideology; socialist ideology= secularism and sometimes atheism.

So the clergy, by educating the laborers, is actively spreading secular ideology, and in cases of high militancy probably atheism??? If I'm correct here than it is not just an interface issue but a common sense/basic realism issue.

 

[JoeGiavani]

It does seem a bit weird clergy always being an educating pop but bear in mind this is a teeny part of a teeny part of an enormous game, and it'd be the easiest thing to mod anyway so chill out.

 

[Orinsul]

Remember youre talking about the function of a piece of game mechanics, think of the clergy not as what your socialist pamphlets tell you but as a POP not nothing from the real world but a gear in the workings of a game. Then apply a little common sense and youll find there is no issue.

 

[unmerged(148761)]

Remember youre talking about the function of a piece of game mechanics, think of the clergy not as what your socialist pamphlets tell you but as a POP not nothing from the real world but a gear in the workings of a game. Then apply a little common sense and youll find there is no issue.

What I posted was entirely based on game mechanics. Think back to Vicky 1: education raises CON. High CON pops were more likely to support parties based on their ideology. For several pops, this meant the socialist party if they had low mil, and the communist party if they had high mil. These parties all had religious policies that were anti clergy. To make it clear for you- I have not mentioned the real world at all, I am talking about the "gears in the workings of the game". Unless a mechanic has changed (and I am asking if it has) then you have pops turning public opinion against them: it would be like if aristocracts pushed people to be more democratic.

 

[parliamentlite]

Think back to Vicky 1: education raises CON.

No, it doesn't. Check the tooltip.

 

[Orinsul]

aristocrats do push people to be more democratic, it is the aristocrats after all who created modern democracy. But as to the clergy encouraging Communism, I see no reason why supporting parties based on ideology supports socialism, conservatism is an ideology and liberalism too for that matter.

 

[Andrelvis]

Could it not be both clerks and clergy do educating, and then there is an event or decision (perhaps with trigger conditions of a constitution/religious policy change) which changes the effectiveness of them at educating the masses (much like one of the inventions in Victoria)? This might be a good compromise on the programming issues which could be faced.

I agree.

 

[Gwalcmai]

That just adds to or substitutes the problem they were trying to fix, with the clergy becoming a useless pop type that the player just tries to get rid of. The new system is supposed to minimise that problem and keep some utility for clergy-type pops through the game.

 

[Emre Yigit]

So long as I can mod the effects, I don't care.

Pretty ship.

 

[pingu]

Can we take the naming subject off-thread?

It has been clearly stated in this thread that although the label for a particular population type may not necessarily reflect its historic function, we are not to discuss the matter further here.

So, can we start another thread in this forum about this? My motivation is not to elicit change in the end product but simply to solicit opinions on the matter...

 

[ollobrains]

Any plans to split the bureaucrats into administrative and military subtypes ?