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bbasgen

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Do we want to be a bit nastier here? Should we make a chunk of the Confucion Bureaucracy Aristocrats? Thus they seve Chinese Emporer, with his mandate from heaven, but they aren't going to serve any old clown with a mandate from the people.

That would be beautiful. Great for China, Russia, etc! A wonderful way to reflect "backwardness" with game mechanics.

p.s. I've likely buried my previous post by responding to this. My previous post is simply a further question on how money works. Do POPs/RGOs/Factories buy and sell directly from the world market, or from the government?
 
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JimmyCos

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guys, i don't want to read all the posts so answer my question please

There's another way to keep a good education without the clergy? cause i don't want those bourgeois tools teaching the people (i like to roleplay the old fashioned dictatorship of the proletariat in my games)
 

RELee

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This is where I get to respectfully suggest that you consider changing your habits.:p:D
 

Zelvik

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guys, i don't want to read all the posts so answer my question please

There's another way to keep a good education without the clergy? cause i don't want those bourgeois tools teaching the people (i like to roleplay the old fashioned dictatorship of the proletariat in my games)

Then think about them as your cadre of political teachers and comissars the moment you change your political system.
 

jamhaw

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Then think about them as your cadre of political teachers and comissars the moment you change your political system.

You should be able to change the POP's appearence and names from what I have read.
 
Jul 29, 2007
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guys, i don't want to read all the posts so answer my question please

There's another way to keep a good education without the clergy? cause i don't want those bourgeois tools teaching the people (i like to roleplay the old fashioned dictatorship of the proletariat in my games)

Better read all the post. One of us have already been banned for asking this kind of inconviniet questions :D
 
Apr 30, 2006
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I imagine if we carry on about it enough after the game is released we might see a separate 'intelligentsia' class in an expansion pack, if we're not capable of modding it in ourselves (which I would tend to guess we won't be).
 

unmerged(91061)

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I imagine if we carry on about it enough after the game is released we might see a separate 'intelligentsia' class in an expansion pack, if we're not capable of modding it in ourselves (which I would tend to guess we won't be).

It's almost certain that you can rename POPs, such as renaming all "Laborers" into "Dirt Farmers", or "Soldiers" into "Canon Fodder", this can simply be done by delving into a /common/defines.txt and changing the wording. It won't be hard (and if it is, a modder will no doubt change it and upload the mod for all to use.)
Stop talking about it!
 
Apr 30, 2006
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It's almost certain that you can rename POPs, such as renaming all "Laborers" into "Dirt Farmers", or "Soldiers" into "Canon Fodder", this can simply be done by delving into a /common/defines.txt and changing the wording. It won't be hard (and if it is, a modder will no doubt change it and upload the mod for all to use.)
Stop talking about it!

Perhaps you should actually read what I said before presuming to tell me what to do. I'm not referring to the naming, I'm referring to only having one educating POP type rather than two. It's a separate issue. Now go bother someone else.
 

gamer42_au

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Coming late to the discussions, but my responses:

1) I think having individual pop literacy is a great step forward - I could never understand how literacy could instantly change when a province was incorporated in a new country. This means that adding new (less literate) provinces with your national pops will hurt your RP generation.

2) Explicitly modelling bureaucracy and hence capacity to carry out functions of a modern state is a great enhancement. Presumably the literacy of bureaucrats will affect their performance.

3) Including government expenditure back into into incomes of bureaucrats and clergy is a neat concept. Presumably also reflected in officer/soldier incomes?

4) Will there still be a shift in clergy impact on education/raising literacy with advent of Darwinism as for V1? If so, perhaps you could implement the suggestion of altering the allocation of education impact between clergy and clerks via decision (with some choices only being available with requisite tech):
a) Clerical education (Clergy high weight)
b) Multi-model education (both Clergy and Clerks have weight)
c) Secular only (Clerks high, Clergy low)
Alternatively, or even better, you could make the shift be from Clergy to Bureaucrats.
Not sure how you would interact this with income flow from education slider - perhaps cause some shift from clergy towards bureaucrats (or clerks) as education model changes.
This would enable country wanting to go the low con route to maintain Clergy in teaching positions, whereas another nation could go higher con by using bureaucrats.

5) Now there is pop literacy, will there be limits of conversion of pop type based on literacy, e.g. labourer to craftsmen only if lit >x%; to bureaucrat only if >y%, etc? If their literacy reduces (eg due to underfunding education) will pops in professions requiring high literacy (eg bureaucrats) devolve?

6) How will pop merging/splitting work for literacy? Weighted average of old pop literacies? Could you split a pop into differential literacy groups (e.g. to convert high lit into clerks/bureaucrats and leave low lit as labourers etc)?

7) Perhaps bureaucrats should have con raising effect - ie the more intrusive the government is in people's lives the more they care about whether it is done right (ie a way they are happy with). Hence to keep people at low con, you want lots of clergy and relatively few bureaucrats (or at least only lowly funded bureaucrats who can't interfere too much) = low intrusion, so minimal attention to what government is doing.

8) What about corruption events when you underfund bureaucracy? I guess that is captured in crime building/crime fighting mechanics.
 

Autonomous

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It's almost certain that you can rename POPs, such as renaming all "Laborers" into "Dirt Farmers", or "Soldiers" into "Canon Fodder", this can simply be done by delving into a /common/defines.txt and changing the wording. It won't be hard (and if it is, a modder will no doubt change it and upload the mod for all to use.)
Stop talking about it!

defines.txt does gameplay constants. Things like EXP_GAIN_LAND in HOI3. String glosses are to be found in /localisation/*.csv.
 
Last edited:

unmerged(148761)

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4) Will there still be a shift in clergy impact on education/raising literacy with advent of Darwinism as for V1? If so, perhaps you could implement the suggestion of altering the allocation of education impact between clergy and clerks via decision (with some choices only being available with requisite tech):
a) Clerical education (Clergy high weight)
b) Multi-model education (both Clergy and Clerks have weight)
c) Secular only (Clerks high, Clergy low)
Alternatively, or even better, you could make the shift be from Clergy to Bureaucrats.
Not sure how you would interact this with income flow from education slider - perhaps cause some shift from clergy towards bureaucrats (or clerks) as education model changes.
This would enable country wanting to go the low con route to maintain Clergy in teaching positions, whereas another nation could go higher con by using bureaucrats.

I like this idea a lot. In the old game you started out getting most of your research from clergy but by the end of the game it was your clerks doing research. They should implement this with education: the clergy thing makes some sense at the begining of the period, but their role in education should shift to the bureaucrats as the game progresses.
 

Prinz Wilhelm

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I don't mind having a generilizing "Clergy". As long as I have to manage one less POP this player is happy.
 

Orinsul

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I for one support in full the developers position on the teaching position of the clergy, its a computer game you must remember so what works and works generically, too all situations not just one when speaking of game mechanics is best.
Further more its clearly stated in the first post that youre not to be quibbling over it, the decisions been made so seal your lips or go jump in sea and stay there untill you change your mind.
 
Apr 30, 2006
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I for one support in full the developers position on the teaching position of the clergy, its a computer game you must remember so what works and works generically, too all situations not just one when speaking of game mechanics is best.
Further more its clearly stated in the first post that youre not to be quibbling over it, the decisions been made so seal your lips or go jump in sea and stay there untill you change your mind.

No, we are not to discuss the naming of the POP, not its function. Perhaps if you put a little more care into reading than you do into your writing, you may have picked up on this subtlety.
 

King

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We had a long discussion about should under athiest government forms should someone like bureaucrats do the educating. We rejected this on interface and processing grounds. The bureaucrats do the administrating they get their money from the administration slider. Clergy do the educating, they get their money from the education slider. From a player persepective you can see straight away what is going on. From our point of view, and remember we haven't forgotton what people said about HoI3, it simplifies the payment calculation freeing up complexity for areas we felt over all were more important.
 

Elecwaves

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Looks good. I don't mind the clergy abstraction, I like realism, but I also appreciate the gameplay much more. The bureacracy seems interesting, it was something I never truly felt was missing from Victoris, but I think it would be a great addition to the game, to represent the change from an aristocratic society to a meritocratic one
 

RedRalphWiggum

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From our point of view, and remember we haven't forgotton what people said about HoI3, it simplifies the payment calculation freeing up complexity for areas we felt over all were more important.

In that case - you are definitely making the right decision. While I think it is a bit confusing and not an ideal naming convention, its definitely not worth harming gameplay over.
 
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