Developer Diary 5 – POPs, Bureaucrats and the Clergy

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King

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Last week I started to talk about the economic system and why we were using a similar economic system. Now, let’s move on a bit to one of our new features, paid servants of the state, the Bureaucrats and the Clergy. However, before I go on, let me mention a major economic change. In Victoria 1 the whole country earned money and then it was split up in true socialist fashion, to each according to their need (although I am not sure exactly why rich people need more; maybe it is because they are rich). Not so in Victoria 2; each POP earns money according to what they do.

So let’s start with the Bureaucrats. They are exactly what they say they are; they are the bureaucracy. They are paid from the old crime fighting slider (now re-branded administration) and the amount of money you need to devote to administration is based on the number of bureaucrats your country has. At state level they affect tax collection and crime fighting, at national level how effective social reforms are. There is a maximum effect they have, but that won’t stop the bureaucracy growing leading to a possible bloated bureaucracy.

We felt that the tax collection ability was an important balancing factor in the game. As we mentioned in a previous developer diary we can use the number of bureaucrats as a way to balance out various countries, without having to resort to hard coded nerfs. However it also has another neat consequence... You have just claimed a colony, it is yours, you need to send troops off to defend it, etc. However, there is no administration there, leading to no revenue coming in to your country. Essentially, the colonial game will cost you money initially, however if bureaucrats emigrate to your colonies or if you are able to start creating a local bureaucracy then you will start to see money flowing in. Crime fighting is similar; consider the example of the USA. Your east coast has a fairly good bureaucracy but the Wild West feels a bit like the Wild West.

We did the same trick with social reform, though abstracted to make it a global value. We abstracted it this way so it would be a lot easier for you the player to see the social reform effect. Social reform also increases the administration cost, bureaucrats need to be paid more as they are now doing more. Social spending is still there, but covers things like pensions that are paid directly to POPs. It is all very well putting safety regulations in, but if no one is keeping an eye on the evil Capitalist exploiters, what will stop the evil Capitalist exploiters exploiting the proletariat?

The final point is that with the exception of tax collection, the effectiveness of your bureaucrats is dependent on the administration slider. We removed tax collection because we would be setting up one of these rather silly game mechanics; to get money simply spend money here.

Onto the Clergy! Now it is obvious to many here that there weren’t many Clergy paid for by the government in the Victoria 2 era. This is one of those little problems where historical reality meets game design reality. First off, we read the forum and knew that Clergy were voted one of the most useless POP types in Victoria. Now this is bad, they should be useful, so we felt we would have to change their role a little. Secondly, they now needed to earn money somehow so we would have to come up with something. So first off was the evolution of the Clergy into educators. Now this does fit the era; a lot of education was done by the Church. It also helps game balance a lot; it was very easy to have 100% literacy in Victoria by maximising your education slider (it was one of those very easy choices, never good in a strategy game). Now the rate at which people gain literacy depends on the amount of clergy in the state, with POPs having their own literacy level, instead of a country wide one, you can have your core Population highly educated (and thus productive) while your Colonial Population is lagging behind a bit and still using more primitive production techniques. Now, in Victoria Clergy had this role of reducing CON, by keeping the superstitious masses backward by peddling yet more superstition. We have decided to keep that but the Clergy’s role evolves a bit according to your government religious policy. If you are an atheist state, essentially the Clergy fulfil the role of the modern schoolteacher. We put in this necessary abstraction because we did not want to clutter up the interface with too many POP types.

This then allows the amazing leaps that you need to make a game work. The Clergy needs to earn money and the Clergy fulfils the role of the modern schoolteacher….. Well, you see where this is going? Yes, we have the Clergy paid out of the education slider. It might not be 100% accurate in every circumstance, but overall it works and gives us the effect we are after.

Now I did say we would talk a bit more about the economic system of Victoria 2 in this developer dairy, and here we have it. Money does not just magically disappear in Victoria 2; like the Spice it must flow. Governments collect money from POPs and then while doing its thing they give money to POPs. We feel that this adds depth to the economy by a very simple change.

Well having shown you land sprites here is a screen shot of a ship, next week will see the final developer diary of the year.

Moderator's Edit
Folks, Johan has made his position clear in this post regarding the use of the term clergy for the POP, and that is the end of the discussion. As he requested, the discussion should focus on the actual working of the gameplay features as described in the Development Diary. To continue to discuss the issue of the name in spite of his clearly stated request that everyone drop the issue is to ignore the administrator. The issue, for the rest of this Dev Diary, is CLOSED. Any further discussion after post #104 of the thread of this question will make those posts liable for potential moderator and/or administrator review in regards breach of forum rules.
 

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Sarmatia1871

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Interesting - although if the clergy have been effectively changed to "educators" and paid out of the education slider, wouldn't it be better to rename them something like "intelligensia," which would include things like priests, scholars, experts, professional schoolteachers, doctors and the like, and thereby factor in the change from clerically-dominated to state-controlled education which was a big feature in the period?
 

King

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Interesting - although if the clergy have been effectively changed to "educators", wouldn't it be better to rename them something like "intelligensia," which would include things like priests, scholars, experts, professional schoolteachers, doctors, and the like?

We like the name, so we just kept the same. They still do thier clergy stuff.
 

Windmolen

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You have just claimed a colony, it is yours, you need to send troops off to defend it, etc. However, there is no administration there, leading to no revenue coming in to your country. Essentially, the colonial game will cost you money initially, however if bureaucrats emigrate to your colonies or if you are able to start creating a local bureaucracy then you will start to see money flowing in.

Can you convince/persuade/send/force POP's, in this case bureaucrats, to emigrate to the colonies?

My greatgrandfather went to work as a mining engineer/supervisor in the Dutch East Indies precisely because the (colonial) government wanted him there.
 

King

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Can you convince/persuade/send/force POP's, in this case bureaucrats, to emigrate to the colonies?

My greatgrandfather went to work as a mining engineer/supervisor in the Dutch East Indies precisely because the (colonial) government wanted him there.

Yes, but how this is done is very much the subject of a future developer diary.
 

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That'll change the dynamics of Vic2 up quite a bit, and better by the sounds of it.

It makes sense having state efficiency determined by the number of bureaucrats, and having to pay them administration services. I'd imagine if you don't keep up with paying that, your country would turn into modern day Somalia??

Is there going to be anyways to promote bureaucrats to go to your colonies and help set up administration there? as well can you turn natives into bureaucrats?

Having Clergy serve an educational purpose, makes them finally useful for a change. Now is there going to be any difference between clergy from your national provinces than clergy from colonial provinces? Would colonial clergy be less educated, and moreless witch doctors? Otherwise it would make sense to turn Africans into clergy, but Africa at this point still hadn't had Christianity forced onto them and wouldnt be as educated? So would the bureacrats also serve the purpose of religiously correcting the African clergy to teaach you national religion?
 

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By the sound of it, the clergy should be replaced by scholars or academia. As the clergy who educated could still come under these titles.
 

Karri

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Sounds very good actually. Now I need to know about military and population growth...please?
 

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This sounds too cool :)
 

Phelan

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Interesting - although if the clergy have been effectively changed to "educators" and paid out of the education slider, wouldn't it be better to rename them something like "intelligensia," which would include things like priests, scholars, experts, professional schoolteachers, doctors and the like, and thereby factor in the change from clerically-dominated to state-controlled education which was a big feature in the period?

I think he is right, we are not in 16th and 17th century, at least for some nations. Prussias teaching system was not about clergy. Ok, the Bismark-Archipel was educated by clergymen, but not Berlin.

I think the concept is great, but a little more differentiation would do the victorian era good...

Any way, thumps up! :)
 

RedRalphWiggum

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This sounds great. Colobnialism is going to now be a real strategic dillema rather than something you'd be stupid not to do.

King, you say POPs will now have different education levels, is the only divide between your core population and the colonies, or will individual POPs have different literacy levels?

BTW, the font used in the screenshot for the province names is great (as is the ship)
 

King

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This sounds great. Colobnialism is going to now be a real strategic dillema rather than something you'd be stupid not to do.

King, you say POPs will now have different education levels, is the only divide between your core population and the colonies, or will individual POPs have different literacy levels?

BTW, the font used in the screenshot for the province names is great (as is the ship)

Individual literacy per POP.
 

ashandresash

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I really love the bureaucrat thing! The state/national different role (tax and crime fighting / reforms efficiency) is great! Colonies and undeveloped regions in a country comes to life, what it's really good.

About clergymen, I find it cool. I considered them also a useless POP (I disbanded them all in Vicky when I had enough clerks), and I think you've got an imaginative and proper way of implementing education.

My only concern is about how to represent the political clash about laicism, one of the most important thing in "modernization". I mean the cleavage between religious and atheist... Maybe relating it to POP ideology? Conservatives and reactionaries going to "confessionalism", liberal to "laicist" and socialist to "atheist"?
 

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I also note you refer to a religious policy, that's interesting...

Also,

Now I did say we would talk a bit more about the economic system of Victoria 2 in this developer dairy, and here we have it. Money does not just magically disappear in Victoria 2; like the Spice it must flow. Governments collect money from POPs and then while doing its thing they give money to POPs. We feel that this adds depth to the economy by a very simple change.

This will make trade and production even more important, if I'm imagining it correctly. Money can more realistically flow in and out of the country, no? Makes the model a lot more capitalistic and realistic, IMO.
 
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So, the USSR or any other atheist country will be paying clergy to teach rather then convert them to labourers??? Jesus Christ :( :( :(

If you found clergy useless - just scrap the POP type and introduce something else intstead rather then try to use them in game, doesn't matter if it makes sense or not.

Changing name to 'scholars' wold make much more sense. Or simply indroducing POP which will represent scholars, doctors, solicitors, clergy, etc - etc - the middle class professions. Sticking with the name 'clergy' just becouse you like the name is counterintuitive and simply misleading.
 

King

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So, the USSR or any other atheist country will be paying clergy to teach rather then convert them to labourers??? Jesus Christ :( :( :(

If you found clergy useless - just scrap the POP type and introduce something else intstead rather then try to use them in game, doesn't matter if it makes sense or not.

Changing name to 'scholars' wold make much more sense. Or simply indroducing POP which will represent scholars, doctors, solicitors, clergy, etc - etc - the middle class professions.

Because we like the name.
 

Temrek

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So, the USSR or any other atheist country will be paying clergy to teach rather then convert them to labourers??? Jesus Christ :( :( :(

They are not paying clergy to teach, they are paying educators to teach. They are not paying sunday school teachers however, which the USA or another religious country might.
 

Arilou

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I don't mind the gameplay mechanics (in fact, I find them excellent) but given the change of focus they really should be given a different name.