Developer Diary 3 – Design Philosophy

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unmerged(44030)

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I don't care if Vicky 2 was a sandbox game (not as extreme as Civ however), as long as the AI doesn't do something totally stupid. Well, most of the AIs in games have their moments of stupidity and that cannot be avoided.

I don't want it to be totally historical either, since then there wouldn't be any fun in actually playing your country, if the outcome is going to be historical anyway. What would be the point of doing diplomatic decisions if a moment later an event forced you towards the historical route.

So I'm just going to be patient and wait for the Dev diary discussing about the AI.
 

Sute]{h

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Seriously, Johan's claim that Vicky was more of a Sandbox than EU2 makes me question his sanity :p
He is on painkillers these days. That might explain it. ;)

Serious vanilla Vicky was far more scripted than vanilla EU2. Sure you could "break" history, but historical outcomes was more likely in Vicky than EU2. As for WW1 not being scripted it always seemed wierd to me. We wont script WW1, that is straitjacketing... but we will script the Crimean War. :wacko:

That being said I fully support more contextual gameplay as long as it remains plausible. The problem only appears when the dynamic approach fails to get the context right. Which was a problem in the early EU3 days. Everything got far to generic because for factors outside the scope of the engine. Luckily Ubik fixed that with the Magna Mundi mod.
 

Arilou

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He is on painkillers these days. That might explain it.

Ouch yeah, it might. Those tends to confuse ones' rational faculties a bit :p

Serious vanilla Vicky was far more scripted than vanilla EU2.

Yeah.

Really.

Seriously, it was.

Mind, I actually think Vicky was TOO scripted.
 

Green Giant

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Sute]{h;10471908 said:
As for WW1 not being scripted it always seemed wierd to me. We wont script WW1, that is straitjacketing... but we will script the Crimean War. :wacko:

Haha yeah I always thought it was weird that the major wars were scripted all the way up to 1898(Span-USA war) but WWI wasn't. Probably tough to do with all the alliances that are needed to simulate such a war.

It would have been cool if as the game went on the major powers increasingly sought balance of power type alliances with multiple great powers. In seeking out alliances the AI would be influenced to varying degrees by ideology, geography, culture, cores on other nations, relations, military power, etc. but not necessarily seek out the same allies every time. Then there would be a powderkeg type event that would have an increasing chance of firing over time that would spark a WWI type war in which possibly special peace rules applied to keep the war from ending in white peace after 6 months.

One can dream... :cool:
 

Shabz

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This seems to be promising approach. If one takes for granted that early 20th century Europe was ripe for general war, as history seems to confirm. I like to think that WWI was an avoidable tragedy, and that we as players should at least have an opportunity to drive our nations away from sequence of events that would lead to such a general war. Only thing I am sure of is that I do not want to have an alliance with GB as German Reich and then suddenly through scripted event they declare war on me on 3rd August 1914, whatever international situation at the moment was.
 

Tormodius

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I like to think that WWI was an avoidable tragedy, and that we as players should at least have an opportunity to drive our nations away from sequence of events that would lead to such a general war.


Some believed it to be "The war to end all wars" and were thinking it was gonna be a quick one and they would be home by christmas. The reason it started was supposedly a heir to the throne who got shot in Sarajevo, but this only started a chain of events, because of an intricate web of alliances and relations that was hard to predict the outcome of. The real reason is to this day not known! So there are still people speculating and making very funny theories about it. Truth is some industrialists and bankers earned alot of money on it!:wacko:
 

Shabz

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Well, John Keegan has nice explanation of it, and it boils down to the intricate web of alliances, unclear information, misunderstandings, friction and fog of war (or peace). Many have speculated that if the communications have been a bit more direct, the entire unfortunate tragedy might have been avoided. But lets keep this game related, or mods will transfer our posts to OT history sub-forum.
 
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Some believed it to be "The war to end all wars" and were thinking it was gonna be a quick one and they would be home by christmas. The reason it started was supposedly a heir to the throne who got shot in Sarajevo, but this only started a chain of events, because of an intricate web of alliances and relations that was hard to predict the outcome of. The real reason is to this day not known! So there are still people speculating and making very funny theories about it. Truth is some industrialists and bankers earned alot of money on it!:wacko:

Er, ok.
 

sbielas

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Russia in Victoria2

(...)

At the same time this is a historical game, so instead of adding in hard coded scripts to steer a country, we add game mechanics that place historical constraints on your freedom of action. Let’s take Russia here as a very good example of a country that was considered by many to be overpowered in Victoria and I’ll talk a little bit about what we mean here. First off is POP promotion; it is going to be automatic. Now there are various things you as a player can do to influence it and I will return to this subject in future developer diaries, but for now just take my word for it. The population of Russia has lower literacy than Western European powers; because of this they are less aware of opportunities than Western European POPs. This in turn makes them less likely to promote. We are trying to model Russia’s relative backwardness in the period, and at the same time giving means for the player to overcome them.

(...)

We’ve also mentioned somewhere that we have bureaucrat POPs who represent the administration. However, absolute monarchies have aristocrats who will serve in the administration (and unlike bureaucrats do it free of charge),

What I am afraid King (hopefully it is not true), that with Tsar Russia you will do the same mistake like a lot of others in the West. You simply look at Tsar Russia from the Western perspective. Set up of Tsar Russia was not really similar to setup in the West.
In terms of organisation of the ruling and governign Russia was more closer to Asisan absolute monarchies than to West monerchies. HOwever I agree in 2nd half of XIX century started to convert governing system to more simliar to Western.

What is the problem with Russia? :) It's a very large subject so very briefly:

We have to understand that until beginning of XIX century private property concept was not really an issue in Russia. Tsar was the owner of whole land - so unlike it was at West (feudal system which evolve then in more capitalists relationship). BTW - feudal system we know (monarchy, liege etc.) was NEVER existing in Russia.

Population - basically until 20th of XX century Russia was farmland with some small industry (surprise - Bolsheviks did proletariat revolution in country with 90% of peasants population and around 5% of industrial workers :) )
If you look at the map you can observe the geografical situation of Russia - the cores laying in not really good climate zone with the lands which were not really fertile. The fertile humus was basically "aquired" by Russian empire in XVIII century. Also one have to remember that warm period for the agriculture is much shorter than in Europe (2,3 months less). For those reasons Russian farming was always extensive, not intensive (so to get the same crops vs. western farm you need more land). Not because they were lazy or something - simple natural causes.
Farm in Russian was 2 to 3 time less efficient than in Prussia for example or in France or Holland.
Not without meaning is the custom of equal splitting the land among male heirs (also in aristocracy but about this a bit later) ; so land plots becoming less and less and this encurages colonization (exstensification).

BTW - this was also the reason why there was not that much person for the work in factories. Male heirs could always count on inheritance not only the oldest son. Not education. I am sure there was no big education difference between Polish and Russian peasant :)

Coming back to aristocracy - as mentioned above for the peasants, inherinting rules were similar - equal splitting so no primogeniture. So in Russia never existed big latifundia of aristocracy. Additionally - aristocracy was granted a land not forever but until the end of life of the beneficiary . Than Tsar could revoke it or confirm the usage of land. Land was also never consolidated but dispersed, frequently in very distant locations. That's why Tsar in reality had never "internal competition' of aristocracy. Aristocracy in Russian was simply "higher rank" servants of Tsar. And the real money they make serving as "clerks" in Tsar administration.

The real plague of XIX century Russia was system of administrative ranks - promotion was done on the basis of the years you served not on the basis of your skills. Promotion was AUTOMATIC!
This meant that to be promoted it was enough to make entry exam (easy) to adminsitration and then be just obedient. In reality you could be an idiot :)
This resulted in situation that the most valuable persons usually never applied for government position, knowing thay will be competing medicore individuals which only merit is to serve without a questioning.

I know it's very, very brief however I would like to mention that to simulate properly Russia in Viki 2 you should take different perspective - not western one :) otherwise you will show not Russia but western imagination what was the Russia.


Final note: I am just amatour historian so professional always can challange me, however I am sure my opinion is not realy far from reality.
My main source of knowledge are books of Richard Pipes, Simon Sebag Montefiore and various articles from internet and press.

Any discussion is welcome! :)
 

Herr Doctor

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looks as quite interesting ideas about general design
 

larlin

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we don’t want people to have to read through the event files and learn to decode them just to be able to play the game.

This is GOOD, or you could just copy the ones from hoi3 as I have already read them :p.
 

unmerged(4839)

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It is not a true sandbox in the regard that every country is equal. However we would prefer to rely on good game mechanics rather than events to make the game more interesting. I even point out why making Russia a democratic republic will be hard work.

I'm a fan of game mechanics determining things rather than hardcoded events. Political structures, zones of influence, economic rivalries, with a splash of hardcoded events to stir things up. That's exactly what I want and it seems like you guys are doing it. I don't want to play a history book but I do want flavor grounded in history.
 

Tormodius

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I'm a fan of game mechanics determining things rather than hardcoded events. Political structures, zones of influence, economic rivalries, with a splash of hardcoded events to stir things up. That's exactly what I want and it seems like you guys are doing it. I don't want to play a history book but I do want flavor grounded in history.

Me too likes this! :) I hope for a game working in the spirit of Vicky but with the modernization of EU3.

In fact if its gonna be as moddable as EU3 the community will also make sure its gonna be great, even if the vanilla is gonna be a bit dull. I'd rather have a simple game working smoothly than an overly complex game with all the ideas mentioned in every thread, thats running like HOI3 and making me give it up.

I currently play the Magna Mundi mod in EU3 and saw there that possibilites are huge for modding and making cool events!
The EU3 engine is so nicely designed that even with heavy mods it wont run slow or crash.

Love to read the next diary. Its so much great news :D
 

Lanassa

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Take Victoria for example we cannot think of a good and codable game mechanic that can allow Germany to form. So we fall back on a decision, where if you fufill the right conditions you can form Germany. Events also have thier place to inject a bit of randomness into a game. Due to the random nature of events you can play the same country exactly the same way and get a slightly (or even radically) different game).
I am extremely interested in the way the Bund mechanics work (or don't work...superficially it almost seems like it would share many aspects with the HRE system in HTTT) and in the various possibilities for German unification - can't wait to see if you guys expand on this!