Developer Diary 3 – Design Philosophy

[Prinz Wilhelm]

No Crimean War!? No Opium War?! Now i'm sad.

But now the Chinese can get a decision to stop the opium trade and the British a decision to declare war to get it reinstated.

 

[Capt. Kiwi]

For those of you in the free gameplay camp, take a look at HOI3's system of 'anything goes' and compare it to HOI2 and tell me its a better WW2 game with a straight face.

Now tell me how you think Victoria 2 will end up if it follows the same path.

"Year 1842: CSA has annexed Germany." anyone?

If the bugs were fixed and everything were properly balanced, HoI3 would be a better WWII game. It is not by any means "anything goes", but as is abundantly clear it needs work. Like I said, Paradox isn't there yet with their latest generation, but when they finally get it right it will be better than it could have been otherwise. It's important to note that not using events in the manner of Vicky does not mean free gameplay. There are still rules, decisions, flavour events etc; but there are no anschluss of everyone situations.

All of those who are proponents of the no events system might actually have a point but unfortunately, it is literally impossible for any paradox game based on Clauswitz to be historical. There has never been a game of EU3 that has turned out as history has, there has never been a Rome game that has ended historically, there has never even been a HOI3 game that looked like the real world in 1948. This is because the engine is incapable of recreating history. All of these games are missing dynamics that allow the game to unfold the same way it did in real life. In order to make a game that claims to be historical, at least some of the games should end the same way history has, until the day that happens (which I doubt very much will come with V2), powerful historical events are needed. And stop saying that events are arbitrary, they happen if triggers are met if something radical happens to change the game, they don't fire. If I am allied to France and Russia and at war with Austria as Germany there will never be an event that removes my alliances with my BFFs and makes me DoW them. Stop with the strawman arguments! Some of us have any knowledge of history because of paradox games btw so please don't assume everyone who plays these games has a PhD in history. Oh and at the beginning, I was talking about vanilla, but even with mods it is mostly impossible.

I challenge you to play a pre EU3 Paradox game through fully historically. There has never been a pre EU3 game that finished as in our reality. All of those games were missing dynamics that allow the game to unfold as it did in real life, and attempted to compensate by using events with marginal success. They did succeed in making one country feel different to another, and that is absolutely needed. Events would frequently have nothing to do with how the game has been running up to that point, and two examples have already been given - the anschluss of everybody exploit, and a (Peruvian?) bankruptcy and mismanagement event. You could try adding more trigger conditions, but you're never going to cover every situation a cunning player will manage to set up.

Sorry, please don't take that as being snarky or anything of the sort. This is all in a polite, reasoned, inquisitive tone, not adversarial. I just don't personally think events as used in Vicky are as wonderful as they're claimed to be. The best thing about them were that they made countries feel different, and they allowed fascinating event descriptions. In those regards, I completely agree that they were good. But they just don't work as ways to drive the game forward.

 

[unmerged(71032)]

But now the Chinese can get a decision to stop the opium trade and the British a decision to declare war to get it reinstated.

Problem with Opium War and Crimean War in Vicky was not in scripting the opening events (they can be designed the way you said) but in limiting the effects of war to the "reasonable" minimum.

Both wars were usually run unchecked, ending up in UK/France signing peace treaty and getting hefty piece of Russian Empire/China in return. All in all, IMHO it's more of the problem with war system (I suggested a while ago adding more cathegories of wars then just normal/colonial, all of them having different peace options/weights) then event system limitation.

 

[King]

Problem with Opium War and Crimean War in Vicky was not in scripting the opening events (they can be designed the way you said) but in limiting the effects of war to the "reasonable" minimum.

Both wars were usually run unchecked, ending up in UK/France signing peace treaty and getting hefty piece of Russian Empire/China in return. All in all, IMHO it's more of the problem with war system (I suggested a while ago adding more cathegories of wars then just normal/colonial, all of them having different peace options/weights) then event system limitation.

This can be solved through good game mechanics

 

[unmerged(71032)]

This can be solved through good game mechanics

Certainly, probably the best way to simulate that is fighting war that got no territorial gain option in peace resoultion, but some political goal.

Paradox games already have such mechanics - succession war in EU3 is glaring example (although it can still end up with teritorry exchange, its core is fighting for right to the throne) and with minor modifications it can be used to sort out various conflicts that were fought not for land, but for changing tarrifs, allowing trade and so forth.

 

[RedRalphWiggum]

For those of you in the free gameplay camp, take a look at HOI3's system of 'anything goes' and compare it to HOI2 and tell me its a better WW2 game with a straight face.

Now tell me how you think Victoria 2 will end up if it follows the same path.

"Year 1842: CSA has annexed Germany." anyone?

There's a big difference, mainly because of the difference in timeframe. You go into a game of HoI3 with a very definite idea of what you expect to happen, i.e. in the 12 years of play you expect a three-way smash-up between three diametrically opposed ideologies, with the main theaters of battle being Europe, the Pacific, North Africa and SE Asia. Anything that deviates too much from that can take away because whether it is marketed as such or not, HoI is a WW" game, albeit one that leaves room for some alt-history.

I see Vicky as a very different game, for one thing its set over 100 years, and realistically you would a couple of small changes early on to have huge repercussions by 1936. Look, I would expect that in the majority of games the AI will form Germany and Italy. I would expect AI Japan to do well because it's hard for it not too. AI Ottomans will have its work cut out for it. But I certaintly don't expect Europe too look as it did IOTL in most games, why should it? So many tiny little changes could have resulted in massive differences. So why shouldnt PI simulate that? Whats the point in things going the same every time? It ruins replayability in Vicky.

 

[Karri]

All of those who are proponents of the no events system might actually have a point but unfortunately, it is literally impossible for any paradox game based on Clauswitz to be historical. There has never been a game of EU3 that has turned out as history has, there has never been a Rome game that has ended historically, there has never even been a HOI3 game that looked like the real world in 1948. This is because the engine is incapable of recreating history. All of these games are missing dynamics that allow the game to unfold the same way it did in real life. In order to make a game that claims to be historical, at least some of the games should end the same way history has, until the day that happens (which I doubt very much will come with V2), powerful historical events are needed. And stop saying that events are arbitrary, they happen if triggers are met if something radical happens to change the game, they don't fire. If I am allied to France and Russia and at war with Austria as Germany there will never be an event that removes my alliances with my BFFs and makes me DoW them. Stop with the strawman arguments! Some of us have any knowledge of history because of paradox games btw so please don't assume everyone who plays these games has a PhD in history. Oh and at the beginning, I was talking about vanilla, but even with mods it is mostly impossible.

What's the point of playing the game if it ends up completely as historical?

 

[RedRalphWiggum]

Certainly, probably the best way to simulate that is fighting war that got no territorial gain option in peace resoultion, but some political goal.

Have you seen the pitch for HttT? It has specific goals for wars, and I strongly suspect that this will in some form be incorporated into Vicky2.

 

[unmerged(71032)]

Have you seen the pitch for HttT? It has specific goals for wars, and I strongly suspect that this will in some form be incorporated into Vicky2.

Nah, I've not been following HttT dev diaries closely, but I'm glad this logical development in war goal department gets implemented there. And of course it's something very much welcomed in Vicky as well.

 

[ashandresash]

Sorry if I'm getting extreme, but history is overrated. I mean... what made WWI possible was not the assassination of Heir Franz Ferdinad, but the alliances structure. So, there would have uncountable (in literal terms) triggers for it... as well as it could not happen. Historical circumstances are not as important as structural situations (I know lot of historicians would argue but this is my position).

We are always shortage. Of time, of people working on the game, of potencial customers budget... As long as I'm expecting a enjoyable game from Paradox, I prefer PI people working on game mechanics that allow the generation of plausible (though un-historical) situations, rather than trying to find the whole triggers and outcomes of miriads of events. Finally, you can always mod it to make the game more historical... but you cannot mod it to plausibility.

Plausibility, rather than 'historicity', should be the criteria IMO.

 

[Johan]

All of those who are proponents of the no events system might actually have a point but unfortunately, it is literally impossible for any paradox game based on Clauswitz to be historical. There has never been a game of EU3 that has turned out as history has, there has never been a Rome game that has ended historically, there has never even been a HOI3 game that looked like the real world in 1948.

And there never was one for HoI2 or Hoi1 or Eu2 or Eu1 either...

 

[unmerged(81228)]

You all focused on events I see guys I personally would like to have lot of them - not to be driven in historic direction but to have some extra flavour.

Johan, I asked about POPs, but there was no answer:

POPs: will it be possible to manually upgrade/degrade/change some POPs for certain form of governemnts?
For example, will I be able to, playing authoritarian governemnt, convert specific POPs to soldiers?
If not, would this mechanic be moddable?

What I mean manual change POPs to soldiers should be allowed at least in the case of war. I would say it should be allowed all the time for authoritarian goverment. I would like to see as well possibility of converting rebel POPs to forced labourers (the same, just for authoritarian govs)

 

[unmerged(137345)]

I like it to be honest. Whilst it maybe fun to play a few games with a narrow scope, It would be good to have this way.

I wouldn't like to see Sweden colonising half the globe and the UK being conquered by Spain, though.

 

[OHgamer]

But now the Chinese can get a decision to stop the opium trade and the British a decision to declare war to get it reinstated.

You've got it in one, essentially. China decided to restore order, sends down Commissioner Lin, and Britain has to decide how to respond. It may happen in 1836 instead of 1839, it might happen in the mid-1840s, but so long as the conditions in China that led to the Qing court trying to stamp out the opium trade are in effect, then at some point there will likely be war between China and Britain.

Decisions, in the end, can be made as generic or as specific as you want the triggers and commands to be.

Having twiddled around a bit with the structure of decisions based off HoI3 to better understand their construction, my conclusion is that if (as seems likely) a similar system is used in Victoria 2, the vast majority of VIP events could indeed be ported over into a mod after a bit of rescripting as decisions unique to the countries intended.

the system is a bit different in structure, to be sure, but the end results are not all that different, and combined with the more reflexive AI behavior and the broader categories of trigger in the Clausewitz engine, I feel more than confident that a second-generation VIP will not only be produced, but actually be much, much better as a mod for gameplay that original VIP.

 

[ashandresash]

(...)
POPs: will it be possible to manually upgrade/degrade/change some POPs for certain form of governemnts?
For example, will I be able to, playing authoritarian governemnt, convert specific POPs to soldiers?
If not, would this mechanic be moddable?

What I mean manual change POPs to soldiers should be allowed at least in the case of war. I would say it should be allowed all the time for authoritarian goverment. I would like to see as well possibility of converting rebel POPs to forced labourers (the same, just for authoritarian govs)

Changing into soldiers in case of war could be made just keeping current Vicky mobilization system. You build a reserve (abstracted) and takes a few months to be operational after mobilization order.

About POP soldiers, I don't find problematic applying general system (automatic change player addressed and, I suppose, encouragable).

IMO. I like so insanely much the automatic POP promotion feature that I don't like to see any exceptions. Sorry

 

[unmerged(81228)]

Changing into soldiers in case of war could be made just keeping current Vicky mobilization system. You build a reserve (abstracted) and takes a few months to be operational after mobilization order.

About POP soldiers, I don't find problematic applying general system (automatic change player addressed and, I suppose, encouragable).

IMO. I like so insanely much the automatic POP promotion feature that I don't like to see any exceptions. Sorry

I disagree; current mobilization system takes fraction of each POP, when manual conversion can be POP specific, for a start. Which is historiccly accurate - for instance some profession are more needed at war then others so you don't draft them.

Second thing is when your manpower is zero (when at war), you can convert your POPs into soldiers to supply exisiting divisions, but you can't do mobilization again.

So, it is not the same.

 

[OHgamer]

All of those who are proponents of the no events system might actually have a point but unfortunately, it is literally impossible for any paradox game based on Clauswitz to be historical. There has never been a game of EU3 that has turned out as history has, there has never been a Rome game that has ended historically, there has never even been a HOI3 game that looked like the real world in 1948. This is because the engine is incapable of recreating history. All of these games are missing dynamics that allow the game to unfold the same way it did in real life. In order to make a game that claims to be historical, at least some of the games should end the same way history has, until the day that happens (which I doubt very much will come with V2), powerful historical events are needed. And stop saying that events are arbitrary, they happen if triggers are met if something radical happens to change the game, they don't fire. If I am allied to France and Russia and at war with Austria as Germany there will never be an event that removes my alliances with my BFFs and makes me DoW them. Stop with the strawman arguments! Some of us have any knowledge of history because of paradox games btw so please don't assume everyone who plays these games has a PhD in history. Oh and at the beginning, I was talking about vanilla, but even with mods it is mostly impossible.

As someone who worked as a VIP beta in the past, leggbros, you should know very well just how difficult it was to keep Victoria:Revolutions historical even with the massive bodice and corset of events, AI script changes and the like that VIP as of VIP:R 0.3 has.

African colonization, we still don't have it perfectly historical. Even if the events all go perfectly historical (and for some we did keep ahistorical chances happening) there is nothing to say that the AI Euro nation might not just peace out in a colonial war with an African minor, or the events might not fire before their expiry date because the involved AI nation is involved in an ahistorical war the AI started with another AI nation.

The reality is that even all the events and AI changes VIP has made to the mod over the years, the reality is that the further from the start year you go, the more ahistorical the game ends up. I have yet to see a VIP save game that by 1914 is perfectly historical, even playing "hands off" and just watching the world go by. I can not recount the number of times during testing of events that I would have to restart the game because of some choice an AI nation made in ahistorical choice for event or deciding to go to war ahistorically, so that I could test some new events in a "proper historical environment".

There are a lot of things that are right with VIP. But let's not kid ourselves, we are only improving the historical feel of the game with the mod from what, without it, is a fairly open-ended base game. Even VIP is not a historical simulator, and one of the things I worked very hard on when I was working on development for the last couple releases was ensuring that triggers were more aware of potential human player exceptions so that events we did have did not fire in gameplay conditions the human player created where the events made little sense contextually (a process that still continues, because as said above, it is well nigh impossible to think of every situation a player can create in gameplay that a particular event should be exempt from firing in) because one of the most common areas of player feedback from the mod was that there was too little freedom for players wanting to strike out on their own ahistorica paths already in what VIP was doing with events and AIs.

If we look at what Magna Mundi has accomplished in the past couple years as a mod for EU3, I think we can agree that it is possible to create a mod that attempts to bring in the best of both worlds - a game engine that is more responsive to player behavior AND a system of decisions and events etc created by the modding community for those players who wish for a, for the lack of a better word, deeper historical feel to their game. It will take some time to develop, but I am convinced that VIP will evolve a similar style of mod for the next generation of Victoria. But the reality is that the players of VIP really are only a fraction of the whole Victoria player community (I've been tracking the number of downloads of VIP, so I have a fairly good idea of how big the player community is. And even if I got US$0.25 for each download, I'd still not be able to buy a new car, not even a KIA), and in the end it makes much more sense from a business perspective for Paradox to focus on games that are more "open ended" and "sandbox" in their style, even if that goes perhaps a bit too far in the potentials of what the AI might be able to do, and then have the modding community develop the deeper gameplay that what in the end is still a minority of all players of the game, seek from their gameplay experience.

 

[tyrel68]

Thanks King and OHGamer for the insanely prompt replies . Of all the things i heard countries ban....this was sadly not unbelievable haha

PLEASE tell me that no declaring war thing was some kind of joke. I've let it sit and the longer i think of it the more i am disturbed. I assume then decisions and missions are the only way to go to war which is counter intuitive to your desire to remove the railroad tracks haha.

P.S. I tried to read the whole thread I apologize if I simply missed this clarification.

 

[OHgamer]

PLEASE tell me that no declaring war thing was some kind of joke. I've let it sit and the longer i think of it the more i am disturbed. I assume then decisions and missions are the only way to go to war which is counter intuitive to your desire to remove the railroad tracks haha.

P.S. I tried to read the whole thread I apologize if I simply missed this clarification.

I am almost 100% positive it was a joke.

 

[King]

PLEASE tell me that no declaring war thing was some kind of joke. I've let it sit and the longer i think of it the more i am disturbed. I assume then decisions and missions are the only way to go to war which is counter intuitive to your desire to remove the railroad tracks haha.

P.S. I tried to read the whole thread I apologize if I simply missed this clarification.

Just to clarify yes it is a Joke.