Developer Diary 26 – Miscellaneous Military Stuff

[King]

Can't you just transfer the extra money a blockaded country has to pay to the producers of the imported goods? Likewise with consumptions of exported goods from the blockaded country.

That isn't as easy as it seems. The World Market code works out who buys and who sells but does not link the two together. So we cannot say for certain exactly which units of grain you imported, just that you imported some of them. This makes it very difficult to start throwing around additional money to people due to blocakdes, esepcially because the blockade status could change daily. I will hold up my hand and say that this system is imperfect. What I do believe is that it is better than Victoria 1's and will make the game better. Obviously if I was working with on unlimited budget I would get an even more realistic system, but with in the budget constraints we have (and I do want to see Fredrik lose his hair) it was the best possible solution.

 

[Colon]

That isn't as easy as it seems. The World Market code works out who buys and who sells but does not link the two together. So we cannot say for certain exactly which units of grain you imported, just that you imported some of them. This makes it very difficult to start throwing around additional money to people due to blocakdes, esepcially because the blockade status could change daily. I will hold up my hand and say that this system is imperfect. What I do believe is that it is better than Victoria 1's and will make the game better. Obviously if I was working with on unlimited budget I would get an even more realistic system, but with in the budget constraints we have (and I do want to see Fredrik lose his hair) it was the best possible solution.

You misunderstood. I didn't meant to say that the money should be transferred to the specific producer of a batch of goods (in the case of imports). I meant to say that perhaps you could divide that money across all the producers of that good. So if a blockaded country pays £50 extra to import a unit of clothes, the £50 is divided across all producers of clothes.

 

[Prinz Wilhelm]

HoI3: Ministers, although broken according to you. 1-0 to PI

They never died. Ever. That's quite a faulty thing.

V2: Leaders, but not historical ones. Almost the same as V1. 2-0 to PI.

There's quite a difference between a randomized leader called "Lee" and the historical leader called "Lee" (I wonder if the randomized leader will die, even, seeing as that is a strange thing to put into a game.)

CK2: CK1 had no historical kings except the starting ones. But it had kings. 3-0 to PI.

???????????????

Did you read what he said? And please, don't bring a football goal count to a discussion about a game, that's pretty childish. Especially if your arguments don't hold.

A few posts after that Johan said that it was possible. Please at least read the Devs comments before bashing the product. It will not come with historical leaders out of the box, due to a design decision but one can add them in.

Are we reading the same thread?

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11167977&postcount=43

EDIT: Saw this: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11168023&postcount=52 . Will have to be investigated further.

 

[King]

You misunderstood. I didn't meant to say that the money should be transferred to the specific producer of a batch of goods (in the case of imports). I meant to say that perhaps you could divide that money across all the producers of that good. So if a blockaded country pays £50 extra to import a unit of clothes, the £50 is divided across all producers of clothes.

Still not that simple. The game doesn't transfer money from producers to consumers. It simply removes money from consumers and gives money to producers.

 

[Colon]

Wouldn't it possible to add more money to the account of producers in the same way you remove more money from the account of the consumers of the blockaded country? Though I suppose you'd need a separate process for that and I wouldn't know if that'd require a lot of extra CPU capacity.

 

[King]

Wouldn't it possible to add more money to the account of producers in the same way you remove more money from the account of the consumers of the blockaded country? Though I suppose you'd need a separate process for that and I wouldn't know if that'd require a lot of extra CPU capacity.

It's not that it couldn't be done. It is all possible, but it would require a pretty major rewrite of how the WM code actually works.

 

[Nikolai]

They never died. Ever. That's quite a faulty thing.

But they were historical, no?

There's quite a difference between a randomized leader called "Lee" and the historical leader called "Lee" (I wonder if the randomized leader will die, even, seeing as that is a strange thing to put into a game.)

Not all leaders in V1 was historical. No will be in V2. A difference, but it doesn't make the game unhistorical. Not the slightest.

???????????????

Did you read what he said? And please, don't bring a football goal count to a discussion about a game, that's pretty childish. Especially if your arguments don't hold.

He said CK2 would probably have no kings. I pointed out that that was silly, especially since CK1 didn't have historical kings except for starting scenarios. A game isn't historical because everything is 100% as in history. It is becaue of the mechanics. As for the scoring, that was tongue in cheek, and for easy show my point. Nothing wrong in it. And it seems you don't follow the discussion much yourself, so please, take care of that first before you attack me.

Are we reading the same thread?

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11167977&postcount=43

EDIT: Saw this: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11168023&postcount=52 . Will have to be investigated further.

 

[Sovereign]

If historical leaders is the only criterion you use to judge if a 19th century game is historical then Victoria 2 is definately not for you. We've done a whole load of things to make the game play and feel historical, but I am willing to admitt that it won't be enough for everyone.

Historical Leaders are not why I'm keen on the Vicky series, they amount to the same level of importance as a historical choice of font on the box or something, not at all the meat of the matter, not even the gravy. It's the strategy, the tactics, the politics, the diplomacy that matters to me.

Who knows, maybe it'll be possible to rename Leaders if it makes the history-buffs feel any better. I just wanna Game!

 

[Tormodius]

Kool! but will there be different stats for the infantry or even different types?
I guess reserves would be less trained and i do remember brigade types from vicky1 where you could make standing army with guards, and you had irregulars and colonials. Will there be anything like that?

 

[King]

Kool! but will there be different stats for the infantry or even different types?
I guess reserves would be less trained and i do remember brigade types from vicky1 where you could make standing army with guards, and you had irregulars and colonials. Will there be anything like that?

Guard and armour and things like that are now seperate brigade types instead of attachments.

 

[telesien]

I'm assuming historical leaders have been replaced by a pool for each country of first and last names? So you still might be able to have a leader with a historical name appear.

Oh boy, I just hope they will do better job than in EU3. I know Bohemia is small and not that important (although it used to be back then when the game starts), but dealing with people like Kladno or Praha was just joke. Those are towns and we do not name people after towns.

That isn't as easy as it seems. The World Market code works out who buys and who sells but does not link the two together. So we cannot say for certain exactly which units of grain you imported, just that you imported some of them. This makes it very difficult to start throwing around additional money to people due to blocakdes, esepcially because the blockade status could change daily. I will hold up my hand and say that this system is imperfect. What I do believe is that it is better than Victoria 1's and will make the game better. Obviously if I was working with on unlimited budget I would get an even more realistic system, but with in the budget constraints we have (and I do want to see Fredrik lose his hair) it was the best possible solution.

What about giving them as spoils of war to the budget of blockading country? Or is that impossible too? Would be cool though... piracy never dies

I don't know if this was asked, but it surely wasn't answered. How can we as players get better leaders? Is this the same as in EU3, so high leadership values will get you better leaders?.

Although I hate to quote myself, I still feel this is quite important question that was most likely lost in the rest of my first post.

 

[unmerged(63236)]

hmmm....so far Vicky 2 sounds promising and in a lot of stuff i agree and i am really looking for it...but this diary...i am not sure what to think about

1. No historical leaders? This destroys a lot of atmosphere of the game. I mean a lot of historical persons who did had a great impact of the are were allready born. yeah of course something could have happend to them but its the atmosphere that seems to shift away...it sounds a little bit ...incidently what will happen. But i know this is the policy of Paradox since years...this is why i still love to play EUII instead of EUIII.

So but now some questions about the mobilization system.
I did understand it right that u only can mobilze full or nothing, right? But isnt that totally unhistorical. In the first days of a crisis i should be able to mobilse my border regions and not the whole stuff. And after a few time i see that i need more (or even less) troops, but than its not possible to take more troops or demobilize parts of it? I mean if i see that there will be a war i should be able to only mobilize like for example 10% of the recruits and see how is it going on. This was the same in the first World War or the best example would be the French-Prussian War of 1870-71. The french fought firstly with or more professional army but mixed with volanteers and mobilized ones, but after the loss of the army in Sedan they were able to mobilze even bigger armies (of course not good equipped and trained). This is what disturbed me the most on Vici 1...that u can not react on the situation.
Will it be the same in Vici2 or diffrent?

And another questions about the Equipment of the mobilized forces. Will there be Depots in major cities or strongholds? I mean take Russia: U realize u will be in a War with Prussia and u mobilze u r Army...then all the weapons and clothes are coming from one "National Depot" for example from Moskau? Wouldnt make sense, or? And on the tactical level of course it would have an impact to take over enimies depots. I dont know if this is too much for the game, but i only would like to know.

And on the last sentence. I think is great that one of the team members like King is answering our questions. Isnt allways like that in the computer game buisness. Thx for that!

 

[unmerged(127071)]

Reserves; we’ve changed the reserve system from Victoria. Instead of constantly clicking to increase your reserve pool you have a reserve pool based on your population size. It is important to remember that if you do mobilise these reserves, the troops will require guns to fight properly, so having a big population does not mean you can field the mother of all armies. You also need an industrial base to support them. The amount of reserve troops is also based around your national value; Liberty allows the fewest reserve troops (being believers in liberty they have ideological problems about forcing people to serve) while Equality allows the largest army. The economic costs of mobilisation are reversed, the lower your mobilisation cap the less economic effects there are to mobilise troops. Technology increases the amount of troops you mobilise and reduces the economic costs.

Does that mean that reserves won't count in the military score?

And will nations with Liberty value be able to somehow increase their reserves in times when the war isn't going so well? Like passing some kind of forced conscription law.

 

[unmerged(138973)]

No the reseve units do not cost small arms to raise. We abstract that, but they do cost small arms to maintain. If you don't have enough they will fight at reduced efficiency.

Just a few questions about military supply.

Will land units also require tinned food for maintance ?

If so what will happen if they dont get enough tinned food ? Extra Attrition ?

Will land units require ammunition as well to operate at full efficiency ?

Will ships have simmilar requirments ?

Will steamers require coal to move ?

Thank you

 

[Alsadius]

Wouldn't it make more sense to have a blockade destroy goods? I buy 10 units of coal at 5 pounds each, but the blockade destroys half. I still spend 50 pounds, but I only get 5 units of coal. Heck, if you want to get really amusing, have the blockade steal the goods for their own use. Keeps the money supply static, but still hurts the blockaded party pretty severely, and seems to make more sense.

 

[OHgamer]

How can there be a mod that expands historical leader files, when no such files exist and any support for set leader files has reputedly been eliminated?

To quoteth the god of Thunder & Rock & Roll a few pages back....

1) in theory yes, but its awkward with id handling. (ie, you need to know exactly what you are doing.

2)

define_general = {
	name = "name" 
	personality = <personality> 
	background = <background>
}

define_admiral = {
	name = "name" 
	personality = <personality> 
	background = <background>
}

so there will apparently be code available to do this, though for reasons they apparently believe are best for gameplay in commercial release, Paradox has decided not to make the leaders historical.

My guess (and this is only a guess) is that you would have an event for a nation that would make this general available once the event fires. Which would mean you could thus have Friedrich III be available via event which would check if Germany were a monarchy or not, and if it wasn't then no Freddy 3 available.

Sounds like a great project for a mod to develop.

 

[Archaalen]

I believe the screenshot answers the question I asked a while ago about randomness: there are some obvious EU3-style "dice rolls" visible, so I am guessing that means battle randomness. This is good!

 

[emperorcharlesV]

I think there should be a partial mobilization option so that you don't have to completely destroy your economy. So in a partial mobilization your call up 50% of your available population. Any more specific than that would lead to too much micromanagement.

 

[Rithral]

Well honestly, mobilization was an All or Nothing affair in the long 19th century no? Basically, if one was fighting a small unciv or was in a grand alliance like in the Crimean War, you basically used your professional troops, but If you felt that that was not going to be enough, then you went all out mobilization wise. A war was never going to be nice on your economy, but It would make sense to mobilize as maximally as possible to win the war as quickly and as decisively as possible to exact the cost out of the losers. I see mobilization as desperation move personally, only to be used in cases where the survival of the motherland is at risk.

Right the "slow bleed" / "modern" war is a recent invention.

If you are going to fight another major, you were going to fully mobilize anyways.

A simple solution that covers 90% of all situations and can be understood by the AI, is prefered over a complicated implementation that covers 99% situations and leaves the AI crippled because it can't figure it out.

Finally, let's talk blockades. We did say they would do something, and they will. Blockades steadily strangle your trade. The cumulative effects of blockade makes it more expansive to trade on the world market. We model this by increasing the costs of importing goods and reducing the amount you earn from exports. The money disappears into the hands of shadowy middlemen who may or may not be connected with the shadowy cartel of international financiers with hidden goals.

Let me just say that I smiled when I read that

 

[besaccia]

I have an important question, will troops maintenance consume only money or canned food and ammo too?