Developer Diary #22 – Loans and Debt

[Rhion]

pretty much

Thanks, that clears up a lot. I had completely misunderstood the feature up to this point

 

[castorp]

pretty much

so, in other words, the whole fleet generating one's massive naval score can just sit at home in port and this is sufficient for the gunboat diplomacy to work?


i guess it's more the threat of bombardment that's the convincing argument for the creditor then?

 

[King]

so, in other words, the whole fleet generating one's massive naval score can just sit at home in port and this is sufficient for the gunboat diplomacy to work?


i guess it's more the threat of bombardment that's the convincing argument for the creditor then?

Instead of forcing you to move a fleet all the way there and all the way back we assume that something sailed off and did a little bombardment. It is an abstraction.

 

[FmrPFCBob]

And what's wrong with instigating war and giving other nations a CB on you?
EU3 even had "send insult" which did exactly that.

Nothing. My question is because this loan system isn't designed for that purpose but it may be used as such, leading to cries of "it doesn't work the way I want/think it should", I'm just trying to point out that possibility.

**EDIT
Okay, I see from King's post the system just won't really allow for this to happen because you borrow from your people before the international funds and if you continue to borrow without paying they along with the creditor will make you miserable.

 

[Weijun]

Looking at this, debt and the current gunboat diplomacy system (use it to force in-debt countries to pay) can simulate a lot of examples of gunboat diplomacy/foreign intervention such as the Opium War and the French intervention in Mexico. But how are things such as the Agadir Crisis and even more importantly the Opening of Japan (by Commodore Perry). In the latter case debt is not an issue (as Japan wants nothing to do with the rest of the world). Is it handled by events/decisions?

It'd be cool if you could use gunboat diplomacy to force other changes on a country than debt-paying. To simulate the opening of Japan, gunboat diplomacy would cause the ruling party to change their economic policies from protectionist to free trade (not exactly sure if there's a step in between, limited free trade or something).

Building on this, is there any chance that countries such as China and Japan can be closed to rest of the world? (i.e. no international borrowing or lending and no international trade until gunboat diplomacy or war changes the situation.)

 

[castorp]

Instead of forcing you to move a fleet all the way there and all the way back we assume that something sailed off and did a little bombardment. It is an abstraction.

sure, 'makes sense...
but i guess i'm a little fuzzy still as to why the abstraction? why not use the creditors actual naval presence (of whatever magnitude) in the actual coastal waters of the debtor as a trigger for the gunboat diplomacy repayment?

thanks, btw, for taking the time to answer all these questions!
i, for one, am more excited about v2 then just about any other game ever!!


cheers
hc

 

[Sute]{h]

So Lübeck could force the UK to pay up via gunboat diplomacy? Or are countries with a higher fleet score immune to gunboat diplomacy?

 

[King]

So Lübeck could force the UK to pay up via gunboat diplomacy? Or are countries with a higher fleet score immune to gunboat diplomacy?

Lubeck could, but if you are the UK and your defaulting on debt to Lubeck the fact that the lubeck fleet is shelling London is probably the least of your worries.

 

[Zarof]

If you are land locked you need to ptray that one of the big powers forces the defaulter's debt down enough that they come out of default and start paying you.

If i understood you correctly, if a defaulter country X is forced to start to re-pay its debt by a gunboat sent by country Y, country X will re-pay all it's loaner, not only country Y ?

 

[King]

If i understood you correctly, if a defaulter country X is forced to start to re-pay its debt by a gunboat sent by country Y, country X will re-pay all it's loaner, not only country Y ?

No but once it has paid down that part of tis debt, its total interest rate payments will fall meaning it has a greater chance of being able to pay your interest.

 

[Sute]{h]

Lubeck could, but if you are the UK and your defaulting on debt to Lubeck the fact that the lubeck fleet is shelling London is probably the least of your worries.

Depend on why I'm defaulting... If I'm defaulting because I've build a mean fleet of dreadnaughts I fail to see how Lübecks single frigate would be able to shell London with anything.

I know the example is kind of extreme, but it just doesn't seem logical to me. You should have naval superiority to employ gunboat diplomacy.

 

[King]

Depend on why I'm defaulting... If I'm defaulting because I've build a mean fleet of dreadnaughts I fail to see how Lübecks single frigate would be able to shell London with anything.

I know the example is kind of extreme, but it just doesn't seem logical to me. You should have naval superiority to employ gunboat diplomacy.

You shouldn't default

 

[King]

Correction:

It is the size of the fleet that is moved to the coast of the defaulting country that determines how much money you can ask for.

 

[Sute]{h]

You shouldn't default

Hmm... first AAR idea. Fall of the British Empire - A tale of defaulting and Lübeckian gunboat diplomacy.

Anyways if the amount of money you get, depends on the fleet you can muster, this probably isn't much on an issue.

 

[Sovereign]

This feature began as a thought about an Event in Victoria; the French intervention in Mexico. Now, the event itself wasn’t all bad, it just had two intellectual problems: The French have the choice to intervene in Mexico in the 1860s to collect debts. We don’t let minor things like Mexico having no debts get in the way of this. Meanwhile, neighbouring Guatemala can go bankrupt as many times as it likes and the French are pretty cool about this. We also have the game play problem of conjuring money out of thin air, which felt a bit wrong. The final piece of the puzzle was the Victoria State bond system, where essentially the government got money for nothing because its people were rich. From all this we began to rethink the whole loan system.

Our goal is to try and capture two things; money should move around in a more sensible manner, and since countries did use the failure to pay debt as a pretext for war we want to have this in as well somehow. The concept of the national bank is born. Your country’s POPs deposit some of their cash reserves into a national bank that then lends money. If the national bank makes loans then the POPs will receive interest on the money. etc.

Glad of this DD, it's an aspect of the game I have wondered about.

But two things, having it based on fleet seems arbitrary and may lead to strange consequences for land-locked countries, and besides if you're a major power and the debtor is land-locked, I'm fairly sure you'll have various means of "getting at" the debtor, why assume the solution will be about fleet-size, can't it just be based on Prestige? Prestige is a far more versatile measure of the capacity for not just gun-boat diplomacy but other forms of forceful diplomacy too...

And also the Shadowy Cartel, won't it be possible to manipulate the system so that money comes in from nowhere at will? How does this shadowy-cartel money then get removed? Can't it just be explained through some sort of Fractional Reserve Banking concept? That's how money is magically appeared in the real world anyway, just ask Greenspan.

 

[King]

Glad of this DD, it's an aspect of the game I have wondered about.

But two things, having it based on fleet seems odd and may lead to strange consequences for land-locked countries, can't it just be based on Presitige?

And also the Shadowy Cartel, won't it be possible to manipulate the system so that money comes in from nowhere? How does this shadowy-cartel money then get removed? Can't it just be explained through some sort of Fractional Reserve Banking concept? That's how money is magically appeared in the real world anyway, just ask Greenspan.

No it is based on fleet.

Upto a point, but this money is only for countries with low debt when there is no money available. We accept that some money may be created out of nowhere (although interest payments are a money sink) for the good of the game.

 

[Wulfram]

Will Britain start with a historically accurate massive debt?

 

[unmerged(139928)]

IMO the best way to handle landlocked countries is only lending from neighbours, because that would make them want a coastal access. The triple alliance war was mainly caused because Paraguay wanted to get to the coast.

 

[King]

Will Britain start with a historically accurate massive debt?

No

 

[Balesir]

It is the size of the fleet that is moved to the coast of the defaulting country that determines how much money you can ask for.

OK, that does make sense. And, presumably, it is possible to attack these ships - if you declare war on their owner, which, since you may well lack a CB and are currently defaulting on your debt, may be a spectacularly bad idea...