Did gunboats actually had role against a mainly land based power? LEt us say I am Andorra/Monaco, and borrowed Money from France and UK and things went wrong. It is really the UK who I should pay first instead of the land based powerhouse around me?
Developer Diary #22 – Loans and Debt
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IIRC gunboat diplomacy played a large role in Paraguay, but I don't recall what it was about.
I reckon it should be based on Prestige frankly. Afterall that's how the World Market works so it would kind of make sense, also be another reason to maintain ones position, especially in the club of 8 - the Great Powers at the top of the pile, that will surely always also be the Great Creditors.
I just hope this will be moddable. Spending vast amounts on a none-productive money sink like a large navy in order to get paid to support (among other things) a large navy, sounds about as ridiculous as the real world.
Nice DD but in reality, states (and banks) can create money out of nothing. So maybe it would be nice to implement a possibility to just print money with the risk af a total collapse of the economy due to inflation.
Agreed. The English state at one point created money simply by making marks on sticks, a system that worked wonderfully for quite a long while.
However I'd be happy just to have tech level eventually allow Fractional Reserve Banking to inflate the amount of credit available for the 'national banks' to release into the world. But who knows, on the basis of a former DD it might be that there's quite enough money in the world by late game anyway.
Agreed. The English state at one point created money simply by making marks on sticks, a system that worked wonderfully for quite a long while.
Not to mention persuading whole nations cowrie shells were redeemable for sterling.
A realistic inflation system (not the one in EU3 which is good gameplay wise but doesn't represent actual inflation) would work well here. Instead of government costs increasing by tech, just have them effected by inflation. Don't know how you'd work wages/goods price into it though.
FWIW this seems wrong. The entity which borrowed the money no longer exists. As for the people who live there, who probably lent the money, well, try not to get conquered in your next life. Finally, what country would ever annihilate another state in war (as opposed to peaceful diplomacy) and then pay their debts?
In game terms it would be frustrating to have your Pops lose money because someone conquered another country, though a CB on the conqueror would seem about right. It would be far more frustrating to conduct a successful war and find out that you were dangerously indebted because the country you conquered spent money like water trying to fight you off.
"You are about to DoW a debtor nation, are you sure Y/N?"
"Warning! Your enemy has just borrowed money again!"
"You are about to annex a debtor nation, are you sure Y/N?"
I want a mod where the answer to every annexation request is the loser borrows a huge stack of money, spends it all on a fiesta, then agrees!
I agree partially... seems weird. I understand they are trying to keep the money in the game because if there is a way for large amounts of money to suddenly disappear from the system there has to be a way to add it back in or things become unstable. It does make for some weird game play situations but... it also does put a bit of a brake on exploits possible in V1 where a small state goes into debt to gobble up a bunch of other small states becoming a superpower after a few wars. Now- your own states goes into debt, + inherit the debt of other states you annex, +risk those other states and your own creditors coming after you to reclaim their debt payments.
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I wouldn't assume that quickly that it is wrong. When a state is annexed by another state, the successor state may actually very well inherit its debts, which for instance was the case when the US incorporated Texas. There isn't agreement of what happens with the obligations of a state when it's incorporated into another state (not considering forced annexation is illegal nowadays). According to iuris universitas, the successor state takes over all the rights and liabilities of the predecessor, but according to tabula rasa, successor state doesn't have any rights and liabilities at all, while practice moves somewhere in between. I believe the European practice in the past was that of iuris universitas, but that was when territories were considered the personal property of the monarch.
Unbelievable. Where were The Minds behind Vic & Vic2 when Hoi series so desperately needed them? Its getting better and better while Hoi series is still crying for having actual economics (instead we spend time thinking if AI can manage the tremendiously difficult trade of 4 resources..) - especially with the new "give AI control over military" model - I personally enjoy gaining upper hand by "macro" gamplay, instead of praying for the right body count after each small battle. I'm already dreaming of implementing different economical schools in Vic2 (probably at the same time as trying to remake Vic2 into WW2 game, I just hope devs don't delete all the very nice work on combat, supplies - algorythms, etc, that is done for the Hoi3
Have you checked the HoI3 credits list?
National debt was a HUGE issue whenever states were merged, annexed or split. It is only fitting that you, the player, should think twice before you formally annex a debt-ridden place like Texas or California or Lippe-Detmold.
The German Empire was set up as a confederation partially because of the same thing... it just made everything easier if Prussia, Bavaria, Baden, Lippe-Detmold etc retained their tax systems and their debts instead of dumping it all into the federal government's lap. Ofc in the game you are not going to see that.
o Still, if Bavaria is deep in debt and you found Germany, you as the German player should feel the pain too. You inherited Bavaria, you take care of their problems now.
The trick is to remember that although a country may take out a massive loan just prior to you annexing them, you also inherit the money from that loan so you could pay the thing back ahead of time if you didn't want the debt in the first place. And I can hardly think of the AI taking the money and wasting it in the time between signing the bonds and your troops blasting down the palace doors.
(This all assumes we can pay back loans early and don't have to wait for them to mature. Right?)
(This all assumes we can pay back loans early and don't have to wait for them to mature. Right?)
I am pretty sure I saw a very nice 'Repay Loan' button in the screenshot of this DD
How about revolutions? I can not recall one instance in which a government that has overthrown the previous one got stuck with their debts.
It would look really silly if communist Russia had to pay France the royal families debts.
It would look really silly if communist Russia had to pay France the royal families debts.
Yea, I know you are the same people, I was being sarcastic.
Its just - having global war game without having refined economy reduces the game to tactical-mass-shooter. Anyways, for Vic2, if you haven't done so already, please, get some historian as a consultant or at least a beta tester. Its very good that you've gone deep and are trying to thought out things as much as possible, the more the better, but academic historian will probably always have deeper and better understanding of the historical question then an untrained person.
How about revolutions? I can not recall one instance in which a government that has overthrown the previous one got stuck with their debts.
It would look really silly if communist Russia had to pay France the royal families debts.
My guess is that it would depend on the country and type of revolution. As far as I can tell, the French Revolutionary government did assume the state's debts - here in Wikipedia, they specifically note that it was one of the drivers towards confiscating the church's land.
If we are talking about actual negotiable currencies, yes - but taking it to that extreme would result in a (sub?)game called "Banking: the Fiscal Manipulation". For the sake of the game's focus I think it's a reasonable abstraction to have an in-game pseudo-currency that represents "real value" and rides above all the financial tinkering and games. It also makes life clearer and easier for the player - after all, if national banks could print money, then each nation would necessarily have a national currency, too...
Agreed. After previous debates about inflation I became convinced, that monetary inflation is unnecesary mechanism for Vicky. It would require a lot of changes including choosing between POPs making adaptive or rational expectations and also modeling long term and short AD curve etc. etc. That would be just total headache to make and play given the fact that even simulators dedicated to this phenomenon usually suck.
This kind of game just needs real inflation and that is already there with WM prices. POPs will just follow real values and not nominal values and economical growth would be real growth. Everything much more clear for player.
HoI3 has an impressive array of features. Each dev diary for HoI3 met tremendous enthusiasm, because just about every design feature of HoI3 is brilliant on paper. Victoria is continuing that patch of an excellent development process. Clearly, this is where Paradox excels.
HoI3 won every feature battle versus HoI2, but lost the war in terms of gameplay. Victoria 2, fortunately, doesn't have as stiff competition from Victoria 1, and PI has learned a lot from the HoI3 implementation.
I think the biggest challenge in PI games, and this becomes increasingly difficult overtime, is ensuring each game "feels" unique, new, and fresh. Gameplay immersion is enormously challenging when so many of us have "been there and done that". The most important dev diaries, in my view, are the ones that speak directly to how immersion will improve, how the "character of the game" is being developed.