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King

Part Time Game Designer
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Dec 7, 2001
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  • Crusader Kings II
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Hearts of Iron II: Beta
  • Victoria 2 Beta
This feature began as a thought about an Event in Victoria; the French intervention in Mexico. Now, the event itself wasn’t all bad, it just had two intellectual problems: The French have the choice to intervene in Mexico in the 1860s to collect debts. We don’t let minor things like Mexico having no debts get in the way of this. Meanwhile, neighbouring Guatemala can go bankrupt as many times as it likes and the French are pretty cool about this. We also have the game play problem of conjuring money out of thin air, which felt a bit wrong. The final piece of the puzzle was the Victoria State bond system, where essentially the government got money for nothing because its people were rich. From all this we began to rethink the whole loan system.

Our goal is to try and capture two things; money should move around in a more sensible manner, and since countries did use the failure to pay debt as a pretext for war we want to have this in as well somehow. The concept of the national bank is born. Your country’s POPs deposit some of their cash reserves into a national bank that then lends money. If the national bank makes loans then the POPs will receive interest on the money.

So here is the basic system. When you need to borrow money you first go to your national bank and borrow money from your population, who will then receive interest on their debt based on how much money they have deposited in the bank. Essentially you can finance things like wars and industrial expansion by tapping your population for cash. This adds greater realism to the lending system; suddenly if you go bankrupt you don’t just lose money that magically appeared out of nowhere, you are going to impoverish your whole population. Secondly, borrowing money by the government removes money from the civilian economy, making for a balance between the two more important, because if a POP is short of money it will start to withdraw its cash reserves from the National Bank.

So far so good. However, what happens when your population just doesn’t have the money for you to borrow? Well, then you can start borrowing from other countries national banks. Essentially, there is an international debt market, where you can borrow money from richer countries who you then pay interest to. Hopefully they will then buy your goods to allow you to pay the debt, leaving the money flowing around the world.

The catch comes when you can’t pay all the interest on the loans; you then go into debt default. You start to not pay people based on the size of their fleet. The country with the smallest fleet is defaulted on first. (You will thus want a navy to protect your commercial interests.) If a country does not pay and has a coast you can send in the gun boats (unless you don’t have a fleet). This allows you to force a country to pay X amount of debt of every month of your loan. The amount is determined by your fleet size. As long as the country on the receiving end pays your demand you can do nothing to them. However, should they fail to respond to the persuasion that only your fleet can offer, then you get a justification for war. So, as Mexico, if you fail to keep your international creditors happy, 50,000 Frenchmen might pay you a visit.

The final question is what happens if you happen to be running your economy well, there is a sudden spike in expenses, leaving you needing to borrow and there is simply no money available for you to lend? Well, if your debt is high then bankruptcy beckons. Fortunately for those countries with low debts there is a shadowy cartel of international financiers with hidden goals who are always willing to lend a hand. Although we tried not to have money coming out of nowhere we felt that for the sake of good game play we needed to have this to keep things working.

In summery we are creating a debt market where credit is not unlimited and there are very direct game play consequences for not paying up.
 

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Awesome! Will there be other instances of gunboat diplomacy (I am thinking of the Second Morocco crisis)? And do you just have to place your navy off the coast of the defaulting country in order to gain thye payments, or is there some additional thing you have to do?

This is the only use for the gun boat diplomacy at the moment. The fleet doesn't have to stay put. Once it has bombarded it can go home.
 
Nice! So what happens when you default? The debt immediatly disapears from the game? And if not, what if your creditor declares war on you and you manage to resist? Then does your debt disapear from the game?

if you default you debt is still there you just aren't paying the interest.
 
So it's more a case of sending your navy to their coast in the hope that they stop defaulting, and then withdraw it again? Cool. (I'd still like to see some other instances of gunboat diplomacy, but I'm not going to bitch about it) :)

No, when they default you can send in the ships to force a repayment plan on them.
 
This is a great feature. The economy should be considerably more realistic as a result. the more I read these dev diaries, the harder it it gets to wait until summer.

Are there any additional factors to a nation's domestic credit limit other than the people's total cash reserves? Do the game mechanics simulate Jackson killing the Second Bank of the United States (or similar national banks for other countries) or massive bank failure in the depression of 1837?

No
 
It wasn't even holding down, it was repeatedly clicking, at least in Vicky. So will there be a dialogue window "pay off £xxxx"?


And tech was how interest rates worked in Vicky too, it was a reasonable abstraction.

Yes there will.
 
This looks fantastic :)

King, will there be any scope for allowing the player to 'print money', a la 'minting' from EU3?

...Or for any kind of representation of the popular movements against the establishment of national banks in the United States (and presumably elsewhere)?

The National Bank is not necessarly a national bank. It is our in game name for it. It is probably much closer to a stock exchange where govrnment bonds are floated.
 
Please tell me that you're basing this on the size of the *modern* fleet.

Otherwise you're creating an incentive for everyone to keep their ancient ships of the line well into the 1930s.... which was a problem in Vicky1 I'd hoped to see addressed in Vicky2!

Naval score
 
BRILLIANT ! just... BRILLIANT !

I am so impatient right now :).

Follow up on the default issue : when a country is in default (it has stopped paying interests on its debt). How will it be reflected on the difficulty for it to borrow more debt ? Will there be an impossibility to do so ? In the same principle how are interest rate going to be defined ? Is there a modifier for rate depending on the default probability or something ? (like daily deficit divided by cash on hand...)

If you are in default you cannot raise money from overseas.
 
My only concern is that if you are heavily indebted to your own citizens, then research lots of economic tech, you are cutting their interest payments and hence making them poorer. But I suppose you can just cut your taxes as well. Just like real life. :)

Pretty much
 
Two questions:
-What about landlocked countries? Will these loan or lend? If so, isn't that a major exploit?
-Does money get automatically withdrawn from the lender's funds, or can they choose not to lend money?

Landlocked country can both loan and lend, Landlocked lenders are down the pecking the order when it comes to repayment. If landlocked country does default it goes straight to CB.
Money is automatically withdrawn.
 
So then you can risk that your National Bank will lend money to a country that you are at war with?

Btw, how is loans generaly handled if war "happens?"

Autonaticaly defaulted? Erased? ...?

You don't lend to people you are at war with.
 
and wait, so a country that hates you will lend you the money if its the richist?
even if it has no reason to expect you to be able or willing to pay back because it hates you

If you have the money you pay the interest. If they have the largest fleet you must pay them back first.
 
Good. :D

But what if France already have a loan from Germany, and war between them starts?

Will France continue to pay interest? Or is the loan "erased" or put on hold?

The interest just keeps on being paid. It is not the government you are borrowing form, this is French debt paper that has been bought by Germans.