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King

Part Time Game Designer
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Dec 7, 2001
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  • Crusader Kings II
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Hearts of Iron II: Beta
  • Victoria 2 Beta
Well time for instalment number 2 of the developer diary process. In order to inject some much needed controversy we decided to go for something everyone can disagree about, the map.

The map it is one of the most important parts of a Paradox game. Therefore we do put a lot of thought into the map. We do this for two reasons. Firstly you are going to spend a lot of time staring at it so it was to feel right and secondly it is the canvas on which the game is played so it has a game play function to fulfil as well.

Well you’ve seen a mock up of the map and we also have a handy map screenshot from the real game (see bottom of the developer diary) to see what we were thinking. As you can see the map is far brighter than the Hearts of Iron 3 map. World War II was a pretty bleak era with terrible global warfare taking death and destruction across the globe, but we felt that this look did not fit the 19th century. The 19th century was a more optimistic era where the belief in the unlimited potential of scientific and moral progress was taken for granted. To reflect this we went for a much brighter look for the map.

Then we are left with the ever so simple task of how do we divide up the world into provinces. When we first began this process we started from the angle that, well, we already have a perfectly good map for Hearts of Iron 3. We felt that if we moved a few provinces from places that were important in the Hearts of Iron 3 era to places that were important in the Victoria era we would have a perfectly serviceable game map.

However this idea was ditched even before the map began to be created. Basically, the Hearts of Iron 3 map was built for war; for armies moving around, for sweeping encirclements and massed battles, but that is not Victoria. Victoria is about the rise of new nations and the break up of old empires, painting Africa your colour, of empires, nationalism and imperialism. Essentially, the Hearts of Iron 3 map just did not fit the bill. So we had to go back to square one.

We are back to a blank map of the world with no provinces at all; we need province boundaries for political rather than military purposes. We felt that to capture the essence of the Victoria era we need to capture the shifts in country borders very specifically. We needed the countries to look good and be able to shift in an historical manner. Just where could we find a map that looked like that?

Fortunately for us there was a perfectly good map buried in the scenario and modifications forum for Victoria, going under the title CLIO. So we sought permission to use the map and the people agreed (we felt it was a bit rude to just take it), and began from there. Here was a perfectly good map of the Victoria era, with the added benefit that the community made it so no one is going to need to complain about the province boundaries.

Here is a screenshot of Scandinavia. I sense a certain amount of bias to that region amongst my co-workers. However that aside we had one clear objective with provinces in Victoria 2, that the terrain type should be clear. So we have tried to make the provinces a single terrain texture for clarity. Now those of you with a keen eye for detail will notice a shortage of rivers and province names on the map, this because we haven’t added those yet.
 

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f***ing fabulous.

How many land and sea provinces would you estimate? Or do you have a definite number yet?

Currently 3247 including all seazones. and the map is 99.99% finished.
 
Nice looking map, well done!
Are there two different types of borders? A thick one and a thin one? I'm pretty sure they are not national borders. So, can I assume there are several provinces combined in a region?

Yeah.. state and province borders, same concept as in hoi3.
 
Nice looking map, well done!
Are there two different types of borders? A thick one and a thin one? I'm pretty sure they are not national borders. So, can I assume there are several provinces combined in a region?

states and provinces are the two borders you can see.
 
Does the different map than HoI3 mean that an official save game converter from Vicky 2 to HoI3 is now impossible?

No, Revolutions and HoI2 had different maps but we managed to work something out.
 
the map looks great.... :cool: , will there be any chance to convert eu3 to vic2, too?

We would need some sort of soap opera style story line to explain the gap. Like all of the world's rulers woke up from a coma or something like that. So probably not.
 
What do the numbers under the unit sprites represent? They are different than in DD 1 (there they were "999").

The idea is that they will represent something of the units strength, maybe in number of regiments, or in thousands..
 
Noice!

Though, I have to ask: Does the Clio project avoid the Clausewitz engine SNAFUs? Just look at South America in HoI 3...

(It's a great game, but some borders there were badly mauled up :D)

The map is generated on the Clausewitz Engine the borders are from CLIO.
 
I guess this map is about the same size of the Hoi3 map, but with far fewer provinces? The extra bendiness in province borders really makes it look better, more than either Eu3 or Hoi3.

It is the same size, so for those of you who want to mod in a HoI3 total of provinces into the game the opportunities are there.
 
I share everyone's enthiusiasm. I like how it looks, I also am relieved there won't be 10000 provinces in it. There's one downside I have to notice though.

CLIO means we're playing a flat world again, not a real round globe, doesn't it? :-|

It's the same map engine as HoI3, EU:R and EU3. So yes there is not going to be a real round globe.
 

I take the time to read the posts people post here, however posts like that annoy me. So for the sake of the rest of the people in this thread please do not bother posting if you are not interested in posting constructively about Victoria 2.
 
Well, since I read in HoI 3 forum back then some comments from devs about "say whatever ya want, we'll make the map as we want", I figured our criticisms didn't count that much in face of fantasy borders, strange outlines and Stalingrad and stuffs hundreds or thousands of km from where they are supposed to be. Hence my reaction about the HoI 3 map.

Wathever, here are some constructive criticismsl:
Good thing you got rid of the "perfectly good map for HoI3". I've rarely seen so much approximation in a map from Paradox, it's one of the main reason I have not and will not buy the game. And I own every game in the EU and affiliated series since EU1. Save Diplomacy. :D Oh, yeah, it's also true that now I wait for complete versions.
For the rest, I hope for the best. No too bad now, as when first HoI 3 alpha screenshots were out I knew the map will piss me off. Here, it seems ok. I am willing to see more. If you are stepping back and going towards a more ROME approach (now, THIS is a nice game, I like the sprites and map very much. Even the usually discarded geographical map), good! I concurr with Johann here: Rome is a nice paradox game (except for the city view I don't fancy much). Please follow Rome look for sprites as well. Current ones are so... slimmy! Almost Skiny. They need a coat and haversack...

This is not the Hearts of Iron 3 forum.