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SønnavDanmark

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First up the coalition, we have kept the same ideological labels for parties in the lower house and the upper house and we divide these ideologies into blocks. The Conservatives and Reactionaries are one. Then you have Liberals and Anarcho-liberals, Socialists and Communists, and finally all on their own the Fascists (being a bit angry they find it hard to find common ground between themselves and anyone else).

The addition of coalitions looks to be another fantastic addition, I just have one question: would it be possible for multiple possible coalitions to exist for the same parties?

For example:

Centrist Coalition: Liberal + Conservative
Social-Liberal Coalition: Liberal + Socialists
Social-Conservative Coalition: Conservative + Socialists
National Conservative Coalition: Reactionary + Fascist

The winning coalition would continue to be that which could form the largest coalition block. This way a much more realistic and dynamic coalition model could be used while (seemingly, from a non-programming perspective) preserving the same basic model.

Any thoughts?
 

HisMajestyBOB

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Or lovers of the color pink or people who like watching others backs- half the population enjoys rap music apparently...

Creepy! :eek:

Anyway, I look forward to raising militancy and getting various reactionary Monarchists to power.
 

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Didn't hitler get elected in a coalition with a conservative party? or am i wrong?

Why can't fascists have a coalition?

Hitler didn't get elected, he was appointed. But yes, Fascists should be able to form coalitions too.
 

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Didn't hitler get elected in a coalition with a conservative party? or am i wrong?

Why can't fascists have a coalition?

There's a limit to what you can represent. I suppose in game terms German MIL rose to the point that the conservatives and reactionaries fell out, leaving the NSDAP the largest single party, thus putting it in charge. Not quite what happened IRL of course - the Nazis had a voting bloc of long standing with reactionary nationalists, the commies were big too but there was no question of their being put in charge, and there wasn't some sort of catharsis when every tendency left right and centre decided to fall out with each other, but it'll do.
 

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IMO "Fascist" would be better represented in the game as a second militant form of "Conservative" (that is, Conservative pops with high militancy would become either Fascist or Reactionary, depending on other things).
 

Earl Uhtred

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IMO "Fascist" would be better represented in the game as a second militant form of "Conservative" (that is, Conservative pops with high militancy would become either Fascist or Reactionary, depending on other things).

Fascism isn't just conservatism on 'roids - they drew from socialists and the unemployed too - and having three right wing but two liberal and two socialist tendencies might throw that appealing symmetry out of wack.
 

Surgünoglu

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Yeah... It's a flawed system but the best possible. Fascism's relationship with rightism and leftism is very delicate. Under Hitler it moved far to the right (Goebbels actually was trying to co-opt the socialists and praised his "socialist fellows," as I recall), but during the period it was a bit amorphous. And when you consider Japanese quasi-fascism, it was definitely somewhere between (or beyond) left and right as understood by Europeans. So I'm happy with this set up. Weimar Germany is very hard to model outside of a political sim, and Victoria II seems on the right track.
 

unmerged(134218)

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Actually there are almost not related. Those terms were selected because:
a) for upper house - they are known and people understand them
b) for lower house - they can show you what each party represent at first glance

otherwise they are not used for lower-house. just with the exception of very close result, when they are the tie-braker

:eek:o

So why did people complain when I suggested renaming the Upper House Ideologies (since the Upper House ideologies have little relation with the Lower House Party labels)?

Eh, whatever.

Parties have their issues predetermined. People vote for them because they support those issues.

If with "implement communist reforms", you just mean more social reforms, you are really only creating a welfare state. If you mean also removing political reforms, you are establishing an authoritharian state where the communist party will stay in power regardless.
There's no way you can ensure a certain party stays in power as long you allow a free vote, otherwise it wouldn't be a free vote anymore. If people would stop voting for the communist party, it's because the party's issues are simply no longer aligned with their own.

King gave the example in a previous Dev Diary about a Communist Upper House and a Communist Lower House. He stated that once all those happy Communist reforms are adopted, people will start voting Conservative in the Upper House, stopping any new reforms from occurring. However, people will still vote Communist in the Lower House. That is what I was referring to. (There are lots of political reforms that don't involve voting, such as, say, Trade Unions...)

Since party issues are fixed, it might be a moot point here.
 

unmerged(11486)

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Can the "N.NN% of Parlament" be replaced with "NN seats in Parliament?" The total number of seats doesn't have to fluctuate or anything (although that would be excellent), it could be capped at, say, 100, giving Virginia 3.8, or 4 seats in Parliament. That would sound better, I think. You are unlikely to ever hear about California's "12.18% of the House," instead you'd hear about the 53 seats that overpopulated mess has.

This is a minor issue, I realize, but it'd make the interface that much more realistic.

I'd also like to voice my support to a monthly/annual/whatever Newspaper summary of the game's broad events. It doesn't have to have the detail that EU3 had, but it could be a lot of fun.
 

unmerged(91061)

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I'm wondering if there can be more then one party with the same ideology in a country?
 
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So if v2 has fascist parties, does this mean the game is going to be extended to 1936 from release?
 

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Sounds very good. One thing, though; it's the Democratic Party in the US, not the Democrat Party. (A member of the party is a Democrat. The party as a whole is called the Democratic Party.)

I hope so, though they may still be present but play a marginal if the game ends in 1921.

They already announced the game is going to 1936.


Edit: Just wanted to add that the interface seems much clearer than the first Victoria's. Easier to piece out the information on the issues.
 
Last edited:

Jia Xu

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No we won't being going into the kind of detail. We are drawing the line at around this point and focussing our time into making this work as well as we can.

You could make a simplistic version of it thought, right? Like set it as a simple, plain event that triggers for Constitutional Monarchies and just give it a nice big MTTH number to represent how rare that happens. Little flavour events like that are always nice.
 

Surgünoglu

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Sounds very good. One thing, though; it's the Democratic Party in the US, not the Democrat Party. (A member of the party is a Democrat. The party as a whole is called the Democratic Party.)

You caught that too? I was wondering if it was unintentional or otherwise. I mean, I know that most of Paradox is centrist or conservative, but still.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democrat_Party_(phrase)

Especially when you combine that with the "We report. You decide." from the screencap. I sure hope that's a joke that gets scrapped in post-production. Fox News slogans kinda take me out of the Victorian era, you know?
 

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IMO "Fascist" would be better represented in the game as a second militant form of "Conservative" (that is, Conservative pops with high militancy would become either Fascist or Reactionary, depending on other things).

There should be another ideology called "Nationalist". Angry nationalist pops would turn fascist just like how angry conservative pops turn reactionary or like how angry socialists turn communist. Pops could turn to voting nationalist when they get issues like Jingoism, Protectionism, etc.

Hopefully we can maybe mod in new ideologies.
 

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There should be another ideology called "Nationalist". Angry nationalist pops would turn fascist just like how angry conservative pops turn reactionary or like how angry socialists turn communist. Pops could turn to voting nationalist when they get issues like Jingoism, Protectionism, etc.

Hopefully we can maybe mod in new ideologies.

The political ideologies in Victoria2 represent different positions on a social and political spectrum. Nationalism sits no where on that spectrum because Nationalism has nothing to do with social or political rights within a country, its only concern is with expanding the country itself.
There are Fascist Nationalists like the Nazi Party and there are Communist Nationalists like the Chinese Communist Party. There are Conservative Nationalists like Paul Kruger's Transvaal Government and there are Liberal Nationalists like Max Weber.


I have a qualm regarding the split of parties. There is a difference between parties in coalition splitting and factions/wings within the party splitting, and I don't think that the model King describes models that. In the example of the Reactionary wing of the Democrats splitting with the Conservative wing, that's a significant party split. By contrast, if you take a coalition split, like

A real life situation for me is current Australian politics. The two main sides in Australia are the labor Party and the Liberal-National coalition made up of the Liberal Party and the National Party. In the current state, the Coalition allows National and Liberal politicians to compete against each other in elections, whereas the Labor party does no allow politicians from the "Labor Right" faction to compete against "Labor Left" faction members.
Furthermore, if Australian politics ever became high militant, then it would be expected that the National Party would more readily split from the Liberal Party then the Labor party would be divided along faction lines into two new parties.

I would suggest rather that the level at which different coalitions break apart should be a two tier process. At first, when militancy is moderate to high, different ideological parties within a coalition bloc break apart, but parties of identical ideology remain in coalition. At the second tier when militancy is even higher, then all parties break apart regardless of ideology to represent factionalism splitting the party.

This allows more politically minded players to mod in party "factions" as different parties in game. Moderate militancy would destabalise loser coalitions but parties would stay together. While extremely high militancy would cause a split in parties with low discipline while unanimous parties would stick together.
 
Last edited:

King

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Ugh. This is confirming my worst fears over this project, but you know what? Question time:

1) How do the blocs decide what issue to support? I'm sure Socialists and Communists will argue heavily over military spending, for instance.
2) Let assume that we have a Communist Upper House and a Communist Lower House. We implement Communist reforms (while at the same time lowering the militancy of the population so that the Communists will eventually rejoin with the Socialist bloc). Next election, we'll have a Conservative Upper House...but what sort of game logic will you have to make sure that we still have a Socialist/Communist voting bloc controlling the Lower House?

1) The largest party inside the block is the winner, it is an abstraction but it means you can see at a glance what your current ruling party allows you to do.

2) In this case why not proritise upperhouse reforms to set it to ruling party only?