Developer Diary 12 – Military

[Darkrenown]

So the Military unit will be better tied into the Military POP. Good
...
There were certain tricks to limit actualy decrease in populatoin of a country, also wasy to get rid of unwanted cultures in provinces. I assume this better tying in will help alleviate these exploits?

Well remember we have no direct control over pop promotion now, so we can't turn a certain culture's pops into soldiers and march them off. Minority pop conversions might be tied to your minority policy, for example, so you might not get large numbers of minority soldiers unless you have given them citizenship, and if they have citizenship you are probably less likely to want to kill them off. It's also possible that high losses from one, non-state, culture might cause dissent in that culture's pops which could cause them (and the soldiers they support) to revolt.

 

[telesien]

Well remember we have no direct control over pop promotion now, so we can't turn a certain culture's pops into soldiers and march them off. Minority pop conversions might be tied to your minority policy, for example, so you might not get large numbers of minority soldiers unless you have given them citizenship, and if they have citizenship you are probably less likely to want to kill them off. It's also possible that high losses from one, non-state, culture might cause dissent in that culture's pops which could cause them (and the soldiers they support) to revolt.

Maybe there can be some policy (f.e. part of limited citizenship), that will give citizenship status to minorities after serving in the army. Or maybe it can give full citizenship to anyone ONLY AFTER serving in the army. Sort of like Starship troopers universe.. You know, some fascisct parties would surely like it.

 

[unmerged(71032)]

Maybe there can be some policy (f.e. part of limited citizenship), that will give citizenship status to minorities after serving in the army. Or maybe it can give full citizenship to anyone ONLY AFTER serving in the army. Sort of like Starship troopers universe.. You know, some fascisct parties would surely like it.

I still think it's a bit missleading to consider soldier POPs promotion/demotion issue as critical element of the combat system.

Note that so far we heard nothing about the officer POPs role (is it the same as in Vicky 1, or more in line with HoI3?) and conscript/mobilization system. Soldier POPs should have only supporting role for vast mobilized armies - something that creates compact, elite force for small scale wars and skeleton you can build around your Great War army.

 

[Zzzzz...]

This is basically the HOI3 system and it worked. Perhaps have it just as another quality setting so there's regular, reserve and native. I'd also like to add guard or more clear to players who are not up-to-date with military parlance: elite. So elite, regular, reserve, native. Would solve all the problems regarding mobilisation and the fact that guard can't be a seperate brigade (as it's about quality which could apply to all brigades, be it infantry, cavalry, artillery, etc.). I can imagine my British army looking somewhat like this:

The British Isles occupied by a small standing army, including a few elite Royal Marine units (marines are probably not in, but let me dream) and a large skeleton reserve army. In the colonies I'd have a few regular units (the cavalry mostly) and a large native army.

This idea is awesome

 

[Lloyien]

This idea is awesome

I actually wouldn't mind it, but guard quality units should probably require 1.5-2x as much supplies and cost substantially more. Reserve quality would be good to simulate drafted soldiers, and regulars could be standard. Native should probably be dropped in this case, though; they probably didn't really cost much less, and a non-state penalty could merely apply to the unit.

 

[Sovereign]

So if the home province of a division is taken by an enemy, a foreign army or rebels, reinforcements will stop being fed to the division in the field? Do revolting POPs stop reinforcing the division?

And if a foreign power takes a province in war, all the divisions from that province disappear? What about the small arms, where would that go, the stockpile I assume...

And would it be possible for a large nation beset by revolution and rebellion, for there to be mass-desertions with whole divisions disintegrating and leaving the front during the course of one war?

 

[Lloyien]

So if the home province of a division is taken by an enemy, a foreign army or rebels, reinforcements will stop being fed to the division in the field? Do revolting POPs stop reinforcing the division?

And if a foreign power takes a province in war, all the divisions from that province disappear? What about the small arms, where would that go, the stockpile I assume...

And would it be possible for a large nation beset by revolution and rebellion, for there to be mass-desertions with whole divisions disintegrating and leaving the front during the course of one war?

You know..maybe 3,000 soldiers from the pop should be literally removed to represent the military unit itself, with what's left over being potential reinforcement. The soldier pop can go back to being a real pop when it's disbanded, returned to the province that it originated from.

Now, I know this sounds odd, and I don't know how hard it would be to code, but the way I see it, the standing unit would just be a mobile soldier pop, with consciousness, militancy, and all.

This would, however, remove all the tricky problems--because then the standing pop can certainly rebel (as some units did) and go its own way, or the pops at home can rebel and create a rebel unit of their own, divorced from the standing pop. Additionally, if the unit's province is taken, then there won't be any soldiers to reinforce the pop--however, it won't have to immediately disband, because it's a mobile pop unit. Maybe it could be resettled elsewhere, or parts of it can be merged as reinforcement for other units/pops that can then be disbanded back into the new provinces that are kept.

Probably impossible, but what do you all think?

 

[Colon]

You know..maybe 3,000 soldiers from the pop should be literally removed to represent the military unit itself, with what's left over being potential reinforcement. The soldier pop can go back to being a real pop when it's disbanded, returned to the province that it originated from.

Which creates a conceptual problem, since a POP actually represented 4 persons in Vic1, to account for those who weren't in the labour force (housewives, children, the old and the infirm...). This will probably be the case in Vic2 as well, so removing 3000 soldier POPs would actually be removing 12,000 from a province's population.

 

[Lloyien]

Which creates a conceptual problem, since a POP actually represented 4 persons in Vic1, to account for those who weren't in the labour force (housewives, children, the old and the infirm...). This will probably be the case in Vic2 as well, so removing 3000 soldier POPs would actually be removing 12,000 from a province's population.

It doesn't in regards to Paradox's current soldier pop policy, where a 3,000 soldier pop = 1 brigade of 3,000 soldiers.

 

[Colon]

It doesn't in regards to Paradox's current soldier pop policy, where a 3,000 soldier pop = 1 brigade of 3,000 soldiers.

I think you misunderstood something. This essentially wasn't any different in Vic1, and the 3,000 soldier POP will presumably still represent the soldiers themselves and their relatives outside of the labour force. Otherwise a POP promotion from, say, farmer to soldier would reduce population fourfold.

 

[Lloyien]

I think you misunderstood something. This essentially wasn't any different in Vic1, and the 3,000 soldier POP will presumably still represent the soldiers themselves and their relatives outside of the labour force. Otherwise a POP promotion from, say, farmer to soldier would reduce population fourfold.

What conceptual problem exists, then? The full population doesn't have to change; it can consist of the pops + active soldiers (x4). The pop wouldn't cease to exist, it would merely be lifted out of the province until it's disbanded and returned.

 

[Colon]

What conceptual problem exists, then? The full population doesn't have to change; it can consist of the pops + active soldiers (x4). The pop wouldn't cease to exist, it would merely be lifted out of the province until it's disbanded and returned.

Because if you lift the POP out of the province you are assuming the soldiers' wives, offspring, parents, one-legged, one-eyed brothers and severely retarded sisters are trekking around the map with him.

 

[Lloyien]

Because if you lift the POP out of the province you are assuming the soldiers' wives, offspring, parents, one-legged, one-eyed brothers and severely retarded sisters are hobnobbing around the map with him.

I don't see why. The pop itself consists of the working men; the population number is inflated from the pop. If the population number doesn't change, then the wives, offspring, parents, one-legged, one-eyes brothers and severely retarded sisters don't exist in pop form, anyway, to be lifted out of the province.

 

[Colon]

But you need to have the POP in a province to have the inflated population number. It derives directly from the POP (population = POP * 4) and I seriously doubt Paradox is about to create a separate model for the non-labour force portion of the population.

Moreover, soldier POPs were subject to provincial growth rates like any other POP. How are you going to determine the POPs growth if you lift it out of the province? Make it depend on whatever province it happens to station?

 

[Lloyien]

But you need to have the POP in a province to have the inflated population number. It derives directly from the POP (population = POP * 4) and I seriously doubt Paradox is about to create a separate model for the non-labour force portion of the population.

Moreover, soldier POPs were subject to provincial growth rates like any other POP. How are you going to determine the POPs growth if you lift it out of the province? Make it depend on whatever province it happens to station?

You raise a good point. It could either depend on the province they're from, which would invariably end if their province is annexed by another state (with the possibility of restationing them elsewhere), or it could depend on the province they're in, though I don't think that's a good solution.

Of course, active soldiers could just not have any growth, but neither would they suffer emigration or negative growth in the case of needs not being met.

 

[zarinth]

Thier original POPs of course provide the reinforcements. If the POP is very small then the reinforcement rate is very low.

no more manual reinforcement ?

 

[Lotus Lo]

very nice.

Darkrenown good angle

 

[Capt. Kiwi]

An interesting dev diary... I really like what you're doing with cavalry and aircraft, and the interface is great. But I have some concerns too - for starters I'm deeply worried that the direct POP-brigade link is going to be more hassle than it's worth. There are too many unanswered questions, like what happens after province capture, large numbers of small POPs, or excessive changes in the base POP. I fear that these will either be exploitable or will raise forum militancy. I would rather have seen the manpower pool split into smaller subpools, one for each culture. Perhaps not as powerful a tool to reflect POP unhappiness, but still useable, and with less risk of unintended consequences.

On lesser notes, I'm sad to see the back of morale and support brigades, and it seems like provinces will also have only one terrain type too (rather than topology and foliage). For the first one I'll wait and see how it goes with just org, I'll trust you to know your job better than I do. The second I can ultimately understand, the game shouldn't be HoI3 + economics + politics + social dynamics. It has quite enough to do without complicating warfare. The last one I might be mistaken about, and I really hope I am. There's no law that says mountains XOR forests, there are plenty of places around the world where both are just as important. I don't see any reason to downgrade from Vicky I on this.

 

[Hansag]

Soldier POPs cost money, brigades cost goods.

Is it possible to place orders on the world market (say I really want a couple of artillery pieces, and I'm willing to pay a hefty premium)

Cavalry doesn't take a back seat persay, it just no longer as effective on the battlefield. If you want to take provinces quickly, you want cavalry.

How about Air (ground crew), do they conquer provinces super fast then?
Or do they need to be coupled with other ground units?

 

[CaptRobau]

1 province = 1 terrain type is an improvement in my eyes. Different terrain types in 1 province is just unnecessarily confusing. It takes less calculations and it's simpler, allowing the player to easily spot where to move his armies. There's a reason why they implemented a simplified terrain map mode in HOI3.

And the seperate brigade system is a solid move in my book. It allows the diversity of HOI3 and is more flexible than both the system in HOI3 (making shuffling brigades/divisions around very cumbersome) and V1 (making attachments undetachments made them worthless to me).

It's a shame that morale is not in any more. You can simulate a lot with this. Polish rebels in Eastern Prussia might not have the highest organisation due to tech but wll start out with high morale because of their do-or-die attitude. And morale was an important part of French military doctrine before WWI.