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EUG_MadMat

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Let’s focus today on the most gentlemanly division to have fought in Normandy, the Guards Armoured Division.
https://www.eugensystems.com/divisions-guards-armored/

d6PC4iK.png
 

Rojan

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You guys did a really good job on the blog. It exemplifies the lackluster performance of the division while explaining why it is like that in game. Look forward to reading more!
 

Jonnydodger

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Nice to see Lt. John Gorman's actions getting a mention. He passed away quite recently, in 2014, after a political career as MLA for North Down for the Ulster Unionist Party. What makes him stand out was that he was a Catholic Unionist. Didn't mention that he was awarded the Military Cross for his actions though.
 

EUG_MadMat

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It exemplifies the lackluster performance of the division
They performed well during Operation Bluecoat and the race from the Seine to the Netherlands. Even during Goodwood did they give a good account of themselves, despite having been placed in a doomed position.

Only in Goodwood & Market Garden did they failed to accomplish their objectives, but maybe it had more to do with the dubious plans they were part of. Incidentally, both these operations were the brainchilds of the same person ...
smiley-face-whistle-1.gif
 

Wulfburk

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They performed well during Operation Bluecoat and the race from the Seine to the Netherlands. Even during Goodwood did they give a good account of themselves, despite having been placed in a doomed position.

Only in Goodwood & Market Garden did they failed to accomplish their objectives, but maybe it had more to do with the dubious plans they were part of. Incidentally, both these operations were the brainchilds of the same person ...
smiley-face-whistle-1.gif


Montgomery's involvement with Goodwood is the same as his involvement with Bluecoat, Totalize, Tractable, Market Garden, Veritable, and even Cobra. Kinda weird to blame the defeats only on him and skiping the victories aint it?


Goodwood more specifically, it was the brainchild of Dempsey, with Montgomery doing the same as he did with Bradley in Operation Cobra. Basically coordinating all the forces in normandy, and succesfully so until September 1 (unlike Eisenhower from then on...)
 

mitchverr

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They performed well during Operation Bluecoat and the race from the Seine to the Netherlands. Even during Goodwood did they give a good account of themselves, despite having been placed in a doomed position.

Only in Goodwood & Market Garden did they failed to accomplish their objectives, but maybe it had more to do with the dubious plans they were part of. Incidentally, both these operations were the brainchilds of the same person ...
smiley-face-whistle-1.gif

Kind of harsh to blame Monty when it was a certain American force and a failure of another general controlling them that lead to the only actual issue that the Guards had in the operation and in the end doomed it (because that airborne chap thought there was an enemy force in a treeline so instead of doing his job, he setup nowhere near his objective and effectively abandoned it,)

And others covered goodwood issues. I dont like Monty myself, I think he stole alot of other generals credit and plans, but gotta be fair to the man when it wasnt his fault :D


A nice note on mentioning the household armoured cars, though a shame no mention how they did so well that the british army stopped and rolled back their plan to phase cars out and replace them with tank recon regiments.
 

Sleight of Hand

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@EUG_MadMat

Remember that Montgomery helped plan Overlord and was responsible for all ground forces for the duration of it; by most accounts the invasion was deemed a success, and obviously the Allies won the war against Germany as a result. It was because of Montgomery - and many other British, Commonwealth and American officers like him - that your country was liberated.
 

Jonnydodger

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Hinting a criticism of Monty remains a proven way to wake British posters up ... :)
I've noticed that American historians tend to put the blame on Montgomery for the failures of certain operations (like Market Garden, Goodwood, Epsom, etc.), as well as pointing out failures of the Anglo-Canadian forces throughout the campaign (though one could make the arguement that they had the harder job). Which always came across as them acting like the US made no mistakes in Normandy and were never at fault. In the World at War documentary, if memory serves, an American officer said that the reason Falaise wasn't more effective was because the Canadians/British weren't quick enough, and the French didn't do a good enough job of clearing the area for the US.

I also recall an American officer saying that the Anglo-Canadian advance wasn't quick because they moved at a much slower pace than the American advance in order to prevent casualties, while the Americans could advance much less cautiously "because [they] could afford the losses".
 

Rojan

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I've noticed that American historians tend to put the blame on Montgomery for the failures of certain operations (like Market Garden, Goodwood, Epsom, etc.), as well as pointing out failures of the Anglo-Canadian forces throughout the campaign (though one could make the arguement that they had the harder job). Which always came across as them acting like the US made no mistakes in Normandy and were never at fault. In the World at War documentary, if memory serves, an American officer said that the reason Falaise wasn't more effective was because the Canadians/British weren't quick enough, and the French didn't do a good enough job of clearing the area for the US.

I also recall an American officer saying that the Anglo-Canadian advance wasn't quick because they moved at a much slower pace than the American advance in order to prevent casualties, while the Americans could advance much less cautiously "because [they] could afford the losses".

Maybe all that is true :^)
 

EUG_MadMat

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You should see what happens when you say something bad about the Bren.
You won't see me do that, I love the little bugger ... :)

In the World at War documentary, if memory serves, an American officer said that the reason Falaise wasn't more effective was because the Canadians/British weren't quick enough, and the French didn't do a good enough job of clearing the area for the US.
Actually, the French, aka Leclerc's 2e DB, "hijacked" a road earmarked for one its neighbor divisions in order to move faster itself. The move had good and bad consequences in the capture of the next city (I can't recall which one) and has been the matter of many debates since. Another consequence was that the French, being up front of their (American) corps because of this act of indiscipline, received the mission to capture Argentan and give hand to the British coming the other way, hence closing the Falaise pocket. The DB did enter Argentan (Wolverines & Fusiliers-Marins leading the way) and fought in the city, securing half of it. But the British/Canadians never came, and the French battlegroup wasn't strong enough to stand in the way of two retreating German armies and had to contend themselves with holding what they had and taking potshots at the retreating Germans.
This first opportunity to close the pocket on the Germans was lost, leading to the Poles & Americans doing the job at Chambois a few days later, and a lone Polish battlegroup at Mont Ormel taking the full brunt of the two German armies trying to break out.

I also recall an American officer saying that the Anglo-Canadian advance wasn't quick because they moved at a much slower pace than the American advance in order to prevent casualties, while the Americans could advance much less cautiously "because [they] could afford the losses".
That's actually very true.
Britain was running out of soldiers, especially infantry replacements. At the beginning of the Normandy campaign, the average American soldiers was 5-6 years younger than its British counterparts, for the latter had been scrapping all the reserve, including heads of families. After one month of combat, Monty was warned that infantry casualties couldn't be replaced anymore, hence the decision to plan Goodwood as a sole armored assault with the 7th, 11th & Guards Armoured Division charging without proper infantry support. Tanks could be replaced, but infantrymen couldn't.

Remember that Britain had to feed men to armies deployed in France, Italy & Asia, just like the USA, but with a population 10 times smaller (at best) while being at war for 5 years already!
 
Last edited:

GeneralOconnor

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Hinting a criticism of Monty remains a proven way to wake British posters up ... :)
Well, there is a certain innacuracy to the view of history.

The Guards I believe had made up time for the loss of Grave bridge to find they then had to support and join the fight for Nijmegan. A very brave action by US paras still required the Guard's to fight through Nijmegan and lose significant time again. Not through any fault of the US para's (god knows I have been to where they crossed) but a bloody poor comand decision at iirc battallion level where no real priority was given to the bloody bridge, much as I a not a fan of Browning, that cnt even be attributed to him.

Its not a matter of waking British posters up, its matter of people being irked by a history seemingly based on Cornelius Ryan ( or rather Attenborougs interpretation of it) rather than much more being produced again.

Im waiting on Monty to be blamed for Hurtgenwald, or for Patton throwing his mens lifes away for his son in law to be attributed to Montgomery aswell.
 

Sgt._Pepper

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Remember that Britain had to feed men to armies deployed in France, Italy & Asia, just like the USA, but with a population 10 times smaller (at best) while being at war for 5 years already!

The population of the US was actually only about three times as big as that of the UK at the time(both without colonies of course).
 

Drang

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So what we've established is that the Guards weren't (particularly) lacklustre vs a vis any other formation, and could probably do with being allowed a few more veteran Fireflies or Achillies.