devastating for minors

[Pocus]

Is it possible to industrialize by your own? YES if you are a major, NO for the rest:

Initial spare parts stock : 5 or 10 (not speaking of the AAA countries)
parts from tech : mechanized production (5), Interchangeable parts (10), total : maximum 25 parts.

parts needed to elevate POP to craftmen:

fabrics : 5 (needed for clothes)
clothes : 7
paper : 7
furnitures : 7

grand total 26. Compare to the 25 above. Is it a lock on purpose by Paradox? Should we only play Prussia, England, France?

I would be happy to have someone find a work-around (playable in legit Victoria) for this 'lock'. I'm perhaps missing something, and would be content to have a working solution.

 

[Theodotus1]

Is it possible to industrialize by your own? YES if you are a major, NO for the rest:

Initial spare parts stock : 5 or 10 (not speaking of the AAA countries)
parts from tech : mechanized production (5), Interchangeable parts (10), total : maximum 25 parts.

parts needed to elevate POP to craftmen:

fabrics : 5 (needed for clothes)
clothes : 7
paper : 7
furnitures : 7

grand total 26. Compare to the 25 above. Is it a lock on purpose by Paradox? Should we only play Prussia, England, France?

I would be happy to have someone find a work-around (playable in legit Victoria) for this 'lock'. I'm perhaps missing something, and would be content to have a working solution.

I have industrialized Texas more than once. My methods may be useful:

If you set orders for clothes and furniture to buy if less than 1000 at the start of the game, you can usually at some point in the first couple of years get the clothes and furniture necessary to convert perhaps as many as 10 POPs. (After that burst of supply it does become hard to get clothing, and sometimes furniture.) Paper becomes available in time. Tobacco seems always available. So elevating at least a few craftsman is usually initially possible.

After that, save enough parts to build a parts factory. Build something like a steel factory if you don't start with one, and use your craftsmen and clerks there at first. (Steel has been a good export product for me -- materials are relatively cheap, and it sells for a good price.)

Maybe my experience as Texas is atypical, but this has worked for me.

 

[Johnny Canuck]

You can always buy machine parts on the WM. Granted, it will likely take many decades to get even a few, but that is a reasonable delay on minor industrialization, IMHO.

 

[unmerged(7034)]

Is it possible to industrialize by your own? YES if you are a major, NO for the rest:

Initial spare parts stock : 5 or 10 (not speaking of the AAA countries)
parts from tech : mechanized production (5), Interchangeable parts (10), total : maximum 25 parts.

parts needed to elevate POP to craftmen:

fabrics : 5 (needed for clothes)
clothes : 7
paper : 7
furnitures : 7

grand total 26. Compare to the 25 above. Is it a lock on purpose by Paradox? Should we only play Prussia, England, France?

I would be happy to have someone find a work-around (playable in legit Victoria) for this 'lock'. I'm perhaps missing something, and would be content to have a working solution.

Try my mod. It doesn't make the game easier, but wipes out many silly irritations. Really.

 

[unmerged(7034)]

You can always buy machine parts on the WM. Granted, it will likely take many decades to get even a few, but that is a reasonable delay on minor industrialization, IMHO.

Johnny, this is simply not true. I ran several high speed tests with civilised minors and got zip, nada. You're advising the wait may take 'many' decades? The whole goddamn game is over after 8 decades and a bit.

 

[Pocus]

Thank you Theodotus. I was thinking along the line of starting my own machine parts but didnt look at the cost figures. Will try this path.
Your assertion that furnitures and clothing can be bought slowly in the WM is surprising, will test that.

Johnny : contrary to you, I'm unable to get machine parts before many many years as a minor, or even as a second rank power. If I must wait 40 years out of 84 as an independant power (lets say Spain) to start industrializing, then there is a big problem. Not because its ahistorical, it is indeed historical that industrial revolution start late in those countries, but as the game is badly balanced for agrarian economies, you have no other ways to get some money.

 

[Theodotus1]

Thank you Theodotus. I was thinking along the line of starting my own machine parts but didnt look at the cost figures. Will try this path.
Your assertion that furnitures and clothing can be bought slowly in the WM is surprising, will test that.

Johnny : contrary to you, I'm unable to get machine parts before many many years as a minor, or even as a second rank power. If I must wait 40 years out of 84 as an independant power (lets say Spain) to start industrializing, then there is a big problem. Not because its ahistorical, it is indeed historical that industrial revolution start late in those countries, but as the game is badly balanced for agrarian economies, you have no other ways to get some money.

Texas does start with relatively high prestige, so other countries might be harder. (The temporary surplus of clothing and furniture doesn't happen immediately, but rather after some time has passed. I've also experienced a temporary surplus of machine parts in a couple of games. The best approach is to set all absolutely necessary commodities to buy if less than 1000 right at the start of the game. That way sometimes you get a piece of a temporary surplus. Of course, keep in mind that Texas starts with relatively high prestige.)

The only real security is to research the tech needed for a machine parts factory as quickly as possible, and then build one.

I do find that, in 1.02, it is possible to run a surplus as a completely agrarian economy.

 

[madogvelkor]

A lot of countries seem to sell off some of their stock right away, so if you set everything to buy on the very first day you should be able to pick up a lot of what you need. Having high pretige helps. Once I break in the top 10 in prestige I can usually get stuff easy, and being in the top three with prestige will get you anything. The best way to get prestige early in the game is though colonies - if you're in north america a few colonial wars against US and Britian and you'll have 800+ prestige.

 

[Darkrenown]

You're advising the wait may take 'many' decades? The whole goddamn game is over after 8 decades and a bit.

That's why the minors are minors, it's meant to be harder for them.

 

[unmerged(12819)]

you do also get 10 MP's from that one invention.. precision something.. so its not totally impossible

 

[unmerged(5198)]

I managed to industrialize as Chile in 1.02 and made it a great power (that is until Brazil kicked my ass). The key is prestige and the best way to get some is to colonize (anything, even midway). With enough prestige (around 200-300) I even could buy machine parts on the WM . I had to build my own furniture factory though.
So it is possible, even if much harder.

 

[Darkrenown]

you do also get 10 MP's from that one invention.. precision something.. so its not totally impossible

Precision works. That's also the invention that lets you build MP factories. You get it from researching Interchangable parts. There's another tech that gives you 5 MPs a few Industry techs before Interchangable parts.

 

[unmerged(7034)]

That's why the minors are minors, it's meant to be harder for them.

It's not 'harder', it's just silly.

"Here guy, this game lets you play hundreds of selectable nations; but be warned that if you do not choose one of a dozen or so, your game will mostly consist of waiting."

Please, let's stop pretending that the mp/POP promotion goods problem is a carefully considered design decision, and not an oversight. Oversights happen to everyone (a bad one happened to me today).

If it's not an oversight, but a design decision, then as much as I like Paradox I'm not buying their next game, because they're going mad. There's lots of ways to make the game harder for selected nations without making it so boring it's almost unplayable.

 

[Dinsdale]

That's why the minors are minors, it's meant to be harder for them.

I agree minors should be minors, but chronic shortages on the WM for low prestiege nations is not exactly making it harder, rather it's a lock against all but the most basic industrialization combined with an agrarian economy which is worthless.

What appears to be outside the scope of the game; socio-political and economic problems caused by industrialization and their affect on nations which historically were slower to industralize have been so over-simplified that all historic issues with industrialization have been modelled by a machine parts queue.

I have no problem if ensuring that Socotra does not become a world power makes Switzerland a game of watching the screen. I do have a problem that Spain can be out of the top 20 in prestiege and have to sit around for 40 years as well, or go to war to raise prestiege.

The machine part shortage and tie to prestiege can lead to absolutely absurd decisions such as warmongering for prestiege, or colonizing Africa in the 1830's for the same.

Some other method other than prestiege needs to be used if goods are to be in short supply. Otherwise, a lucky Texas can have a better shot to join the 'haves' while a Prussia with a few prestiege-loss events early in the game is condemned to the 'have-nots.'

 

[Theodotus1]

It's not 'harder', it's just silly.

"Here guy, this game lets you play hundreds of selectable nations; but be warned that if you do not choose one of a dozen or so, your game will mostly consist of waiting."

Please, let's stop pretending that the mp/POP promotion goods problem is a carefully considered design decision, and not an oversight. Oversights happen to everyone (a bad one happened to me today).

If it's not an oversight, but a design decision, then as much as I like Paradox I'm not buying their next game, because they're going mad. There's lots of ways to make the game harder for selected nations without making it so boring it's almost unplayable.

The problem, really, is just that the scenario set ups haven't been rebalanced yet. I expect (hope?) that things will be better in 1.03.

 

[unmerged(7034)]

I have no problem if ensuring that Socotra does not become a world power makes Switzerland a game of watching the screen. I

I do have a problem with that. I have a problem with any design decision that makes gameplay consist of watching the monitor.

 

[unmerged(23774)]

Thank you Theodotus. I was thinking along the line of starting my own machine parts but didnt look at the cost figures. Will try this path.
Your assertion that furnitures and clothing can be bought slowly in the WM is surprising, will test that.

After playing Spain, US, Brazil, and Argentina I don't see why this is suprising. Every time (6 games as those 4 countries) I've managed to pick up at least 20 clothing and furniture on the market plus a varying amount of machine parts (at least 10 each time but I never really kept track). Fabric and paper are impossible to get but I can deal with that.

Of course with all of those nations I've managed to get at least a colony or two which increases prestige and generally means that I spend part of the first 13 years as a great power. With a really minor nation (Transvaal for example) you might not be able to buy items as the nations ahead of you are snapping them up.

Not because its ahistorical, it is indeed historical that industrial revolution start late in those countries, but as the game is badly balanced for agrarian economies, you have no other ways to get some money.

How much money counts as some money?

Again, with every minor country I've tried I can balance the budget without any real problems. Army and navy maintenance at about 30% (I'm at peace), defense spending similar. Education around 80%. Crime fighting 40-50%. Taxes can generally stay where they started or go a little lower. As the US and Spain I've had to raise tarriffs to pay for the maintaning a better army. As Brazil and Argentina I could even leave tarriffs at zero and watch my pops become richer.

I'm generally not gaining more than $1 a day but its balanced. To fund "extras" such as colonies, wars, or the beginings of industrialization I sell technology to either China, Korea, or Japan (I pick one at the beginiing of the game).

 

[Dinsdale]

I'm generally not gaining more than $1 a day but its balanced. To fund "extras" such as colonies, wars, or the beginings of industrialization I sell technology to either China, Korea, or Japan (I pick one at the beginiing of the game).

IMHO gaining colonies to increase prestiege, and selling tech are gamey exploits to the system. There are always methods of increasing prestiege, or buying the world's supply of goods on day 1, but none of these are particularly good solutions.

One can look at gameplay in a number of different ways, for me; when fighting the system and using every exploit is the only way to go then it's not much of a game experience.

 

[Darkrenown]

It's not 'harder', it's just silly.

"Here guy, this game lets you play hundreds of selectable nations; but be warned that if you do not choose one of a dozen or so, your game will mostly consist of waiting."

Would you prefer "Here guy, his game lets you play hundreds of selectable nations; but be warned that they all play exactly the same, play the UK or Peru, you can build factories at exatly the same rate with either!"

While I agree the WM coould do with more goods so that the likes of Spain can get at least a good part of their supply from it, I don't want to see 3rd world nations buying everything they need and becoming economic powerhouses.

 

[unmerged(7034)]

Would you prefer "Here guy, his game lets you play hundreds of selectable nations; but be warned that they all play exactly the same, play the UK or Peru, you can build factories at exatly the same rate with either!"

Let me borrow your logic here and use it in another example: would you prefer to consume a plate of animal manure, or starve? Because, you know, if food is something that can be eaten, then manure and broken glass are food too, taste and nutritional value notwithstanding.

No, of course I wouldn't want Peru or whatever to play the same as the UK (Peru's a bad example actually; it's a dynamite minor). Are you implying that a game just cannot be made good all around, that it HAS to be screwed up in one area or another? That it's impossible to handicap smaller/poorer/uncivilised nations without crippling gameplay? I think that's, er, animal manure.