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faiuwle

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Someone who's highest title is duke can hold infinite duchy titles and never get a too many duchies malus. As a king or emperor, it's still useful to see what duchies you can create or usurp for when you need to consolidate your vassals. I don't have a problem with this notification at all.
 

bcw2311

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Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us. As a few others have commented, it is useful to find out where your thought processes are and to have the opportunity to feedback on this.

The final solution is simply removing the opinion malus on having several empire titles. I don't really have any data saying this is good or bad.

I was unaware that there was an opinion malus on having several empire titles. In that case I would be grateful to double check whether there is one on having too many kingdoms? In my current game there is not (have just double checked) but that means:
  • Duchies = malus
  • Kingdoms = none
  • Empires = malus
This looks odd, so I'm just wandering what the reasoning is behind there being no malus on Kingdoms?

Either that, or I've found a bug...

1. Several Duchies. This has always stuck out as a weird thing for me. You can be the ruler of the known world, stretching from Britannia to India, but my god do your vassals hate you for being in charge of THREE duchies instead of TWO. How DARE you?! Preposterous!

A solution here is to tie the minimum Duchy limit either to your personal ruler tier (Duke, King, Emperor), or the realm holding size.

Agreed, and your suggestion seems sensible.
 

Avil

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I was unaware that there was an opinion malus on having several empire titles. In that case I would be grateful to double check whether there is one on having too many kingdoms? In my current game there is not (have just double checked) but that means:
It's not "too many" malus, it's "I want your stuff" malus for vassals under title you don't have your capital in. Since you can't have emperor vassals, there is no reason to make secondary emperor titles (well, there is actually de jure reason, but anyway).
 

efreund

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I don't understand, on a conceptual level, what is a de jure empire, anyway? In the Christian world, there is only one empire, Rome, and there are two competing claimants to it (HRE & ERE). In the Muslim world, there is only one empire, the Caliphate. (Pagans and eastern religions, I understand a bit less, admittedly. But I'm not aware of any other de-jure-concepted empire other then The Middle Kingdom, and that's off-map.)

Given that, what does it really mean to create the empire of Italia, etc.? These are all fictitious, and illegitimate in the eyes of Christendom & Islam. Especially if you already hold (Restored) Rome, which is the only real empire that your religion acknowledges anyway. Until you can define what a de jure empire means, I don't think we can really come up with a solution for it.

Personally, I preferred the old system: there were few de jure empires, but then anyone with 3 kingdoms could create a titular empire by decision. Extend that to include that the "real" Emperors (of HRE & ERE) should get opinion maluses with you, as you are now a pretender to their throne.
 

WJS

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I thought the Charlemagne decision just grabbed the colour of your previous area, and went with that one. Hm, that is weird.
In my experience, it takes the shade of the de jure territory used in the "upgrade" and lightens it.

Couple of examples from my experience:

The Kingdom of Dauphiné (based off the Duchy of Dauphiné)

755BC02485A7A2FC8AE44E4554EFAF8299E22FFD


The Empire of Ivarland (de jure look, based off the Kingdom of Brittany)

5561886821EFDE9D3763E7668A8C6D1F5F363F79


Admittedly, one is an awesome pink/magenta, and the other is a less attractive putty color, but there you go.
 

Raczynski

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What is the justification for de jure territories, anyway? I get how they work in the game, but especially at the early dates, is there really a "every one knows that's part of England" thing going on?

They made sense when 1066 was the startdate. Most of them make little to no sense in 867 or 769.
 

faiuwle

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De jure configurations are different at different starts, they could easily have made different de jure borders in the earlier starts. What do you think should be different?
 

Rags17

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I don't get the game's obsession with creating titles. Kings created duchies for their vassals, not for themselves. When vassal's lineage died out the peerage remerged with the crown. You shouldn't be able to create lower and equal tier titles for yourself. Instead, you should be able to create them for your vassals, as opposed to creating a title and giving it to your vassal.
:

1) This, so much this. Honours and titles aren't things that you claim for yourself (I'm looking at you Idi Amin) but which are instead granted or bestowed, either by your people, your Senate/Council, or your religious head. If you do create titles then it is because you are seen as the "font of honour" and are able to do so, a bit like giving out lands and estates.

Ideally all characters should be able to create lower level titles for others via a character decision, the only way that they could get a new one themself should be via a Council petition which you can refuse (eg Caesar refusing the crown) or arranging your religious head to create it for you (eg Charlemagne, the various Caliphates).

2) I agree that the whole "Two Duchy Limit" is absurd. Why not expand the demesne limit drastically then simply fold duchies into that ? So maybe a high Stewardship character with good laws and good government type might have a demesne limit if say 30, with Baronies counting as 1, Counties as 3, Duchies as 10 and so on.

3) We already have a mechanic to differentiate between top level titles called "dignity" in the landed_titles file. This tag simply increases the "value" of a title compared to others of the same rank. The solution to the "many empires" problem then is to simply take the top two titles of the same rank and make that a merged empire. Thus if I was the King of France (dignity 30), Asturias (dignity 10) and Galicia (dignity zero) then I would be titled the King of France and the Asturias.

I just checked the landed_titles file though and the mechanic is currently kind of arbitrarily used (Venice has dignity 200 !) so the values would all need to be reviewed.
 

aantia

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Without going too much into it, there's three potential ideas I have at the moment.
3. A new decision as a HRE vassal to become a Prince (king tier vassal) (Probably just free with patch)

Isn't this ahistorical unless you're Bohemia? Admittedly a lot of my knowledge of the HRE is from EU3/4, so I'm not a reliable source. But I did think that Bohemia was the only Kingdom-level title, due to some inheritance weirdness or something in the Charlemagne era HRE.
 

klopkr

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Please DO NOT fill up the decision window any more than it needs to be. The thing is already way too cramped. Make a new button literally anywhere else.

Otherwise I like the direction you're thinking in.

I think that the idea of combining two titles into one is really cool but it should have the same limitations as the ones required for destroying a title.

I think the real thing we're running into here is the fact that the de jure system is extremely lacking. It was a solution for strange things like england being equal to france but normandy being under the french king.
 

Aotrs Commander

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3. Multiple Empires. And then we come to the final issue I have with the title creation button. Multiple empires. You have reformed the Roman Empire, you are at the top of the world. And now you can create the Empire of Italia! Or Francia! Or Germania! ... And what is the point exactly again? Some more negative opinion maluses? Nah, better just wait for the Kingdoms to DeJure drift into the Roman Empire.

This is PRECISELY the issue I'm having right now.

392F0F1DC3ACCE8138251C5B271E8F499BF59C93


This is a screen shot from last night (I've played a bit more since today).

The create title flag has been around for the majority of the game, and I have to periodically check that new one has not appeared.

I have, at current about TWENTY titles of kingdom or higher uncreated, and one of the major efforts of my game is de jure drifitng kingdoms out of existance into titular titles (or in three cases, INTO them), solely to stop my hapless vassal minions creating them and then getting pissy because they're now feudal not vice-royalty. (I must have about a dozen kingdom titles or something daft created, which exist and I hold onto to stop my vassals from creating them until I can very slowly de jure them into titulars and then destroy them - which then just adds to ne "create title list...!").

This means I have to remember to periodically check the warning list and try and remember if anything has changed!

The permanent title creation alert for titles you don’t care about has been an issue for me in the past. With imperial administration you are in a position where you MUST create duchy titles as soon as it becomes possible to hand them out as viceroyalties. If you delay this it is possible a vassal will create the title himself as a regular duchy, making him and all of his descendants hate you forever.
Normally this isn’t a problem since you can be quick on the alert but if the alert is already there (I don’t want to create any of these titular kingdoms/other empires!) and if your vassal sneakily did some conquering to form a duchy you get completely blindsided by this.

Exactly.



My very FIRST suggestion is to implement (at least in addition to) the warning, a pop-up notification, informing you can can now create or usurp a new title. The warning is a useful listing, I guess, more it's more use as a list than a notification. With a pop-up at least know know and don't have to keep racing your vassels (or stripping it off them) when they can make a new duchy or something.
 
Last edited:

Sam_Stone

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Note, this isn't really a Dev Diary or anything of the kind, I leave those to the ones higher up in the system. Nor is this indicative on any changes we are making to the game, but rather just my personal thoughts on the game, and just creating a discussion on a topic I am interested in, and get some feedback. I am sorry if it comes across as a bit of rambling.


Problems


The game often gives you information through the buttons at the top of the screen, informing you about the decisions you might take, the ambitions you might have, or the commanders you could assign. Personally, I've always found the title creation one the most interesting, as it informs the player that you have expanded your lands and can create new titles. You can become a King, an Emperor, or maybe you've simply moved from a Count to a Duke.

1. Several Duchies. But as it stands right now, I feel the button somewhat loses its meaning as you progress through the game. The first hinder is the simple fact a character can't have more than 2 Duchies, without getting opinion maluses. You are in charge of a bunch of small Duchy areas? Well, you are just not going to make those Duchy titles then. Sucks to be you. Now you are stuck with having the title creation as a permanent part of your life.

2. Titular Titles. Say you've dodged that bullet. You stuck to your original area, you built several baronies in the area you focused on or something of the kind. Then we hit the second hinder, titular titles. You've moved into Spain, and can now create Andalusia, Aragon, Castille and Portugal. That's a lot of titular titles leading nowhere, isn't it? So we create them, give them out, and start focusing on other things. A couple of years pass, and suddenly the game tell you that you can create Aragon, Castille and Portugal again, wait what? Oh right, the King of Andalusia, your power hungry vassal, just ate the other three. Because those are his DeJure areas, and god be damned if he will let the fake Kings of Aragon, Castille or Portugal be in charge of HIS areas.

3. Multiple Empires. And then we come to the final issue I have with the title creation button. Multiple empires. You have reformed the Roman Empire, you are at the top of the world. And now you can create the Empire of Italia! Or Francia! Or Germania! ... And what is the point exactly again? Some more negative opinion maluses? Nah, better just wait for the Kingdoms to DeJure drift into the Roman Empire.

While all of this is happening, you are stuck with having the title creation button on your screen. It is just there. It no longer inherently informs you that something have happened, or that you can do something new. It is just there. And you have to start clicking through them, to find what you want.


Potential Solutions

So how can we fix these issues?

1. Several Duchies. This has always stuck out as a weird thing for me. You can be the ruler of the known world, stretching from Britannia to India, but my god do your vassals hate you for being in charge of THREE duchies instead of TWO. How DARE you?! Preposterous!

A solution here is to tie the minimum Duchy limit either to your personal ruler tier (Duke, King, Emperor), or the realm holding size. It is hard to communicate to the player a realm size limit to it, without getting into numbers etc, so it is probably easier to directly connect it into ruler tier. You are a Duke? 2 Duchies without any opinion maluses. King? 3 Duchies, etc. It's a natural progression, and it makes sense as you progress through the game.

2. Titular Titles. Titular titles have always sort of annoyed me. They are meaningless titles you can use specifically to gain prestige or make Merchant Republics, and that's all they do. I am going to make a change here, coming out with the next expansion, where you can no longer create titular titles by simply holding their capital city. They will all be changed into decisions instead, and when you use the decision and form the Kingdom title, you have a certain amount of DeJure land drifted into the title. Good examples of this currently in the game are the Spanish kingdoms. You use the decision to form Aragon, and the Duchy of Aragon and Barcelona are drifted into the Kingdom title. So if the title are a titular one, you should have a decision to form it, if it has land attached to it, you simply hold enough land to create it. Hopefully that will reduce the Kingdom tier spam somewhat, in the late game.

3. Multiple Empires. Now this is the one I have a hard time coming up with a good solution to. I don't feel like there is any simple good solution to this problem, as things stand right now. One idea I was playing around with, is to incorporate empires into your original one. Either by outright saying "Hey, you are in charge of the whole DeJure area of both Italia and the Roman Empire, so we'll give you a decision to incorporate the Empire of Italia into your other DeJure lands."

Another solution could be to halfway incorporate two titles into one title, and say "Empire of Italia and Germania", share the DeJure lands, but have different succession laws so the two titles could fall apart if you had different heirs. This solution is code heavy though, and will probably lead to a lot of weird bugs, as well as horrendous bordergore and weird vassal splitting.

The final solution is simply removing the opinion malus on having several empire titles. I don't really have any data saying this is good or bad.

4. Other solutions. Another solution to this whole problem, another way of making the title creation more relevant again and less of a permanent fixture in the late game, is to let the player choose if a title is relevant for them or not. For decisions, we let the player decide if they find a decision important or not. We could simply do the same with titles, and put in a checkbox. If the player don't think the Empire of Germania is an interesting title, they click the box and they will never be reminded they can create that title again.

Conclusion
It could be this whole thing is just something I personally find frustrating when I play the game, but I thought I'd at least share my thoughts and see what other people are thinking. So I'd like to hear your thoughts on potential solutions if you find it frustrating to deal with as well, or if you have any thoughts on the changes to titular titles.

Tying the amount of duchies you can have without negative opinion modifiers to your ruler rank is such an obvious solution that I don't understand why it hasn't been done yet honestly.
 

Rip Off Productions

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Funny thing you mention that. What about the Empire tier spam that came with Horse Lords? Empires used to have a unique mystique since they were hard to create and only three existed at start (HRE/ERE/Abbasids) but the Nomad mechanics kind of spoil it.

Is it feasible to put Khagans as Kingdom tier, and the vassal khans as Duchy tier?

EDIT: I really loved your idea of specifically asking players about feedback on design. A worthy filler for a dev diary.
I think letting Nomads exist as count, duke, and king tiers when independent would be nice: lets petty tribes that barely control any land swear fealty to larger clans, as well as maybe letting settled peoples subjugate lesser nomads(though with extreme difficulty).

this would make Ganges's "Khan of Khans" title appropriate for his Empire tier title.

3. Multiple Empires. Now this is the one I have a hard time coming up with a good solution to. I don't feel like there is any simple good solution to this problem, as things stand right now. One idea I was playing around with, is to incorporate empires into your original one. Either by outright saying "Hey, you are in charge of the whole DeJure area of both Italia and the Roman Empire, so we'll give you a decision to incorporate the Empire of Italia into your other DeJure lands."

Another solution could be to halfway incorporate two titles into one title, and say "Empire of Italia and Germania", share the DeJure lands, but have different succession laws so the two titles could fall apart if you had different heirs. This solution is code heavy though, and will probably lead to a lot of weird bugs, as well as horrendous bordergore and weird vassal splitting.

The final solution is simply removing the opinion malus on having several empire titles. I don't really have any data saying this is good or bad.

I think there should be no direct opinion penalty to holding multiple empires, in fact it might help stabilize your realm by giving some sort of "De Jure liege" bonus and thus reduce independence factions in that region(but only the independence faction, the rest will continue regardless), but this creates the risk of empire brake up; be it through legitimate succession by divergent laws, civil war by claimants, or usurpation by an ambitious vassal wanting it for themselves.
 

Captain Frakas

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1. Several Duchies. This has always stuck out as a weird thing for me. You can be the ruler of the known world, stretching from Britannia to India, but my god do your vassals hate you for being in charge of THREE duchies instead of TWO. How DARE you?! Preposterous!

A solution here is to tie the minimum Duchy limit either to your personal ruler tier (Duke, King, Emperor), or the realm holding size. It is hard to communicate to the player a realm size limit to it, without getting into numbers etc, so it is probably easier to directly connect it into ruler tier. You are a Duke? 2 Duchies without any opinion maluses. King? 3 Duchies, etc. It's a natural progression, and it makes sense as you progress through the game.

I would favour integrating it into the demesne limit, as some have suggested it. Seem more coherent to me: I prefers that few game concepts would cover much each, rather than much game concept covering few each...

If we want to avoid getting into numbers, we can considerate that the demesne limit is a limitation of landed titles and that any title, being baron ranked, count ranked, duke ranked, king ranked or emperor ranked, count for one. So to have three duchies instead of two while staying under the demesne limit, you'll have to renounce to one barony.

A more subtle solution would be to have baron titles counting as one holding and duchy titles counting as two holdings, or whatever the good balance is decided to be.

Then you let players cook with their demesne limit as they wish... It is, in my humble opinion, the funnier. Player can held a third duchy without penalty if they renounce to two baronies (if one barony count for half a duchy)... And if they only hold one duchy, they can hold two baronies more than if they held two duchies...

2. Titular Titles. Titular titles have always sort of annoyed me. They are meaningless titles you can use specifically to gain prestige or make Merchant Republics, and that's all they do. I am going to make a change here, coming out with the next expansion, where you can no longer create titular titles by simply holding their capital city. They will all be changed into decisions instead, and when you use the decision and form the Kingdom title, you have a certain amount of DeJure land drifted into the title. Good examples of this currently in the game are the Spanish kingdoms. You use the decision to form Aragon, and the Duchy of Aragon and Barcelona are drifted into the Kingdom title. So if the title are a titular one, you should have a decision to form it, if it has land attached to it, you simply hold enough land to create it. Hopefully that will reduce the Kingdom tier spam somewhat, in the late game.

Is it needed to rely on decisions? Wouldn't it be possible to do it trough the gain_effect and allow brackets on the titular title definition? It would be more cleaner in my humble opinion.

Anyway, while I do not like titular titles, for similar reasons as yours', I quite not like your potential solution as it will tend to make this game even more easy than it is and because I find it incoherent. Why would such a title gain immediately and magically a legitimate territory while another one would have to wait one century? It seem too much gamey.

My advice is that there is three case of landed titles: 1. titles of the past (before the game start, before the current moment of the game), 2. titles of the present (at the game start, at the current moment of the game) and 3. titles of the future (scripted while didn't happened yet at game start nor at the current moment of the game).

In my humble opinion, titles of a (relative) past and titles of present perfectly fit the de jure system. However titles of the future shouldn't be present, neither as de jure titles (I don't want to have a de jure Russian empire in 769!) nor as titular titles. Since Charlemagne, Crusader Kings is able to rely on dynamic titles. It would be quite more interesting to use it, with two kinds of conditions: very difficult conditions to meet if created somewhere there is already a similarly ranked de jure title, quite more easier if created somewhere there is no de jure titles.

It would be difficult for a Frank lord to found royal legitimacy in the Gauls without referring to Aquitaine, Burgundy, Provence, Brittanny, Neustria, Austrasia, East France who weight much on the royal symbolic of his place... However, it would be quite easier for a Varegue to found royal legitimacy in territories that never new any organized and stable kingdom before: he is in a quasi tabula rasa place.

If created in a territory which was once de jure part of a titular title with a title history and with similar religion, then we might imagine that, instead of creating a new dynamic title, the creation decision would instead recreate again the title...

3. Multiple Empires. Now this is the one I have a hard time coming up with a good solution to. I don't feel like there is any simple good solution to this problem, as things stand right now. One idea I was playing around with, is to incorporate empires into your original one. Either by outright saying "Hey, you are in charge of the whole DeJure area of both Italia and the Roman Empire, so we'll give you a decision to incorporate the Empire of Italia into your other DeJure lands."

Another solution could be to halfway incorporate two titles into one title, and say "Empire of Italia and Germania", share the DeJure lands, but have different succession laws so the two titles could fall apart if you had different heirs. This solution is code heavy though, and will probably lead to a lot of weird bugs, as well as horrendous bordergore and weird vassal splitting.

The final solution is simply removing the opinion malus on having several empire titles. I don't really have any data saying this is good or bad.

The second solution is the best one: it is coherent with the universal ideology of an empire while allowing empire to split anyway (considering that their de jure lands would split again too), but as you say that it is code heavy, the last solution is the one I would prefer over the first one: Magically integrating new empires into the original one is waaaaay top gamey for my taste. Merging two titles in one have few interest and lose the opportunity to have two empires with distinct successions laws, distinct crown laws. It would impoverish the game rather than enriching it.
 
Last edited:

Keslier

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Not going to lie, it's super annoying and dull having to deal with the problem of titles. If I don't make it, my vassal will and start opposing me more simply because he's a higher tier now, or I make it and everyone hates and resents me a little more because I'm a king whose governed the land so well that my borders keep expanding and everyone gets to join in on taking the riches from the infidels. It's just very binary, and unappealing to spend my game dealing with continuous title disputes in situations where people should be content. However, any attempts to make it less binary and implement more complex mechanics would call for a new game, and the only feasible thing are the suggested tweaks.
 
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