[Dev Team] We're back.

[Lionel Mandrake]

They don't owe you any such thing and it's appallingly entitled to suggest otherwise.

If someone sells you an incomplete product they should either fix the product so it meets satisfactory standards for the buyer/consumer or grant a refund. It has nothing to do with being entitled or worse.

 

[RealCyclonit]

I might be a little late to voice my feedback, but I just hope that the CM or some devs will come across this:

First of all let me point out that I really really like Stellaris. I've put more time into the game than I should have. To me, it is by far the best sci fi strategy game there is. Additionally, I fully support the way that PDX keeps on developing content of games well after their release. This is something not seen in most games and it is what keeps my hopes up, that Stellaris will keep on improving and be an even better game in the future. However, I strongly agree with all of the previous posters who think that the latest DLC release was not okay.

I do understand that adding new features will introduce a lot of bugs. I also do understand that all QA on this world cannot get rid of all of the bugs. There will always be some leakage that the player base will find and which will need to be addressed in future patches. Regarding PDX's DLC model, this is perfectly fine. If you buy a DLC, just like when you buy a new game, you should expect some bugs. This is normal an will be fixed in the following weeks.

However, this does not excuse the recent game breaking changes. Its not just new features that are broken. Over the past DLCs, old features were broken. Repeatedly. Content which customers payed for, which was functional at some point, was broken while introducing new features. Meaning that not only did those who bought new DLCs not get a bug free experience when enjoying new content, but those who didn't buy the DLCs had to watch while the features that they had paid for became worse. This is what bugs me the most.

If all that had happened, was for PDX to release a broken DLC, which didn't affect the rest of the game, I simply wouldn't care. I simply would not have bought the DLC on release, waited a few weeks for all of the bugs being ironed out, and join in afterwards. But that's impossible. Yes, you can currently roll back to version 2.1.3, but the same problems apply to that version too. While it did improve some things, it broke others. There simply is no way for me to enjoy a stable version of the game, even though I have thus far spent more than 100€ on the game.

In all of software development, you should have regression tests. This is even more true for a game like Stellaris where the devs themselves claim that they want to keep on improving the game for several years after release. Adding new features doesn't have any benefit, if you keep on breaking core components of the game. Yes, regression tests can be annoying. Coming up with test cases for tiny features etc. isn't what devs like to do. But it is necessary. Once you have identified a test case for a given component of your software (e.g. running a few games in observer mode to validate your AI), you write them down and you pay someone to repeat them for newer versions.

 

[MaXimillion]

Ramiren was on probation. Honestly, he should have stayed away from the thread.

A perfectly reasonable post with 100% agrees getting you banned is not right, probation or not.

 

[Cat_Fuzz]

Alright, so this thread has been on the watch list since Jamor posted it and I'm all for open, unhindered discourse but let's tone it down a little.

We are always trying to maintain this openness and closeness with the community and try to be as transparent as possible, hence why Jamor posted this thread and let everyone know what is being planned.

There is a finite amount of time and resources available, but prior to release we had extensive QA testing, we played the game live on stream for the Dev Clash on hot code, we have weekly multiplayer sessions internally among the team, staff who are both involved in the project and outside of the project play in their spare time at work and as many issues are caught and fixed as possible. This will never compare to thousands upon thousands of people playing at launch but we're scouring forums, reddit, youtube, twitch, twitter, etc. and trying to address as much as possible. A day before vacations started where most people would think to start winding down, Jamor and his team released a patch to make sure that the community had the best possible version of the game to play over the holiday season. We've specifically allocated and budgeted a large chunk of time - because everything inevitably costs time or money - to fixes as Jamor said in his OP. If this is not enough to show the team's dedication and loyalty to making Stellaris the best game possible then I'm not sure that anything will convince you of this, unfortunately.

The team take great pride in what they do and try to make sure they're servicing those who play the game as much as possible. Trying to give people as much of what they want as can be created in the time that's available. They take time out of their day to interact directly with the community outside of working on the game, giving as much transparency and openness as they can to what's coming. They don't need to do this, but the culture within the team is that they enjoy having the open transparent way of communicating.

The level of lambasting displayed is diminishing that desire to maintain this level of openness. If it continues, the professional recommendation I will make to the team is to disengage from that open line of communication and simply stick to making announcements and patch note posts - relying on a filtered report to get a sense of what the community is saying/doing/reporting. This is not what anyone wants, I expect.

All I ask is you keep the discussion civil and free of toxicity, report issues to the appropriate sections, and if you want to rant and post vitriol on the forums, do it directly to my inbox here on the forum. What I won't stand for is for that to be directed at the dev team who are working tirelessly to give everyone the best game they can.

I would gently say that much the same was said after 1.5/6 was released (and in fact, much the same conversations are happening both ways) so I think it should be expected that when the DLC was released bugged before, and assurances where made that it would be improved next time around, it's not such a surprise that 1.5 years later the same thing happens, with a similar response. It would be nice to see an actual behavioural change in how PDX releases updates, either by:

• Taking extra time if needed to polish an update, both for MP & SP.
• Releasing as is now, but with full disclosure that the update is buggy and will need a while longer before it's signed off as 'complete'.
• Inviting open beta status upon release and announcing as such, with buy in becoming possible after testing
• Release the free patch sooner than the DLC, so that bugs can be fixed in the main patch ahead of the DLC, so that after buying the new product the main game is in a more stable state.

To simply say the same thing that was said 1.5 years ago (I did try to find this, but it seems you don't allow public access to threads over a year old) and then suggest you drop open communication if people don't stop being disgruntled suggests that it's the player who should be thinking of walking away from the open dialogue...

 

[Darkrenown]

Ramiren was on probation. Honestly, he should have stayed away from the thread.

He also didn't get warned for the post he claimed, but a deleted post to Badgr complinaing about threads being closed, which breaks the "don't comment on mod action forum rule".

 

[Taritu]

Alright, so this thread has been on the watch list since Jamor posted it and I'm all for open, unhindered discourse but let's tone it down a little.

We are always trying to maintain this openness and closeness with the community and try to be as transparent as possible, hence why Jamor posted this thread and let everyone know what is being planned.

There is a finite amount of time and resources available, but prior to release we had extensive QA testing, we played the game live on stream for the Dev Clash on hot code, we have weekly multiplayer sessions internally among the team, staff who are both involved in the project and outside of the project play in their spare time at work and as many issues are caught and fixed as possible. This will never compare to thousands upon thousands of people playing at launch but we're scouring forums, reddit, youtube, twitch, twitter, etc. and trying to address as much as possible. A day before vacations started where most people would think to start winding down, Jamor and his team released a patch to make sure that the community had the best possible version of the game to play over the holiday season. We've specifically allocated and budgeted a large chunk of time - because everything inevitably costs time or money - to fixes as Jamor said in his OP. If this is not enough to show the team's dedication and loyalty to making Stellaris the best game possible then I'm not sure that anything will convince you of this, unfortunately.

The team take great pride in what they do and try to make sure they're servicing those who play the game as much as possible. Trying to give people as much of what they want as can be created in the time that's available. They take time out of their day to interact directly with the community outside of working on the game, giving as much transparency and openness as they can to what's coming. They don't need to do this, but the culture within the team is that they enjoy having the open transparent way of communicating.

The level of lambasting displayed is diminishing that desire to maintain this level of openness. If it continues, the professional recommendation I will make to the team is to disengage from that open line of communication and simply stick to making announcements and patch note posts - relying on a filtered report to get a sense of what the community is saying/doing/reporting. This is not what anyone wants, I expect.

All I ask is you keep the discussion civil and free of toxicity, report issues to the appropriate sections, and if you want to rant and post vitriol on the forums, do it directly to my inbox here on the forum. What I won't stand for is for that to be directed at the dev team who are working tirelessly to give everyone the best game they can.

So, rather close to confirmed that the devs tend to play this in multiplayer and thus miss the fact that the AI is broken.

Fix the AI and other major bugs and you'll see a lot less flaming.

 

[TarnishedSteel]

So, rather close to confirmed that the devs tend to play this in multiplayer and thus miss the fact that the AI is broken.

Fix the AI and other major bugs and you'll see a lot less flaming.

We shouldn’t be flaming in the first place, whether or not we’re angry (even justifiably).

 

[ragehavoc]

We should do exactly what they seem to want us to do, stop buying their products, if the response from devs is going to be, "if you dont like it dont buy, or shut up", since they cannot deal with negative feedback, than I guess we should all do what they want and no longer buy their products, it seems like they do not want customers, so lets not give them anymore.

thanks @badgr for clearing that up for us!

 

[Lauxman]

How can you possibly say that there was extensive QA testing done before the patch was dropped? Don't lie to people and people wouldn't be upset. Is your QA branch that much different than your production and release to where things like the AI being literally unable to build bigger fleets on patch release are undetectable? Or do you really only test in multiplayer matches?

 

[Duuk]

He also didn't get warned for the post he claimed, but a deleted post to Badgr complinaing about threads being closed, which breaks the "don't comment on mod action forum rule".

I'm going to break the "don't comment on forum moderator action" rule here, but hopefully you'll forgive me because I'm doing it in a good way.

When I first started reading this thread in my office this morning, I swear the thread said it was about 21 pages long.

While I was reading, suddenly it was 14 pages long and Badgr had replied in there a few times. Once semi-angrily and once much more rationally.

If you're reading this thread NOW it might seem like Paradox is overreacting to some of the "hate and anger" in this thread, but I'm willing to bet that the moderators have gone through and deleted piles upon piles of bile and nastiness so the devs and programming team won't need to see it (so Jamor/etc doesn't come in to work and see people puking all over it) because that's not productive.

Basically, the posts that are left in the thread are all of the reasonable anger and the stuff that is justified, so the responses (especially the 1st one) from badgr seem a little heavy handed.

That's just my guess. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Taritu]

I mean, I just watched a game in which my ally declared war on the Prikki-tikki-ti, then didn't move his fleets at all (he was much more powerful) and thus managed to lose the war.

No, man, no. Fix the AI please.

(And, y'know, I bought all DLC full price, etc... This is my favorite game of the last couple years. But it's broken. The AI has been weak since 2.0 (1.9 it was actually good), but now it stalls out, goes into death spirals and so on. I can virtually cripple myself and be in the lead.)

 

[Spyhawk]

I swear the thread said it was about 21 pages long.

The thread has never been 21 pages long. It magically shortened a little for some unknown reason*, but not by a third.

*Magic happens, that's all, and it makes me not break any written or unwritten rule here I hope.

 

[Spaceception]

While I don't know what their plans are in the coming weeks, I would think there's some sort of priority list, and I hope it's something like this:

• 1: Performance
• 2: AI
• 3: Bugs
• 4: Balance

And that in the quality of life patch, the AI gets at least a small revamp, maybe improved/expanded personalities in prep for when they get the Diplomacy update in the pipeline. Don't just fix AI to make it functional, fix AI to make it interesting.

 

[Fampat]

• 1: Performance

• 2: AI

• 3: Bugs

• 4: Balance

I guess the amount of time (budget) will not allow all of the things we would like to see, but i would be realy happy if so...

 

[Duuk]

I guess the amount of time (budget) will not allow all of the things we would like to see, but i would be realy happy if so...

Nowhere has that been indicated. Jamor has said they have plenty of time budgeted and allocated specifically to bug fixing and cleanup.

Translating from code-geek to English/Marketing, I think he meant to say "we have EXTRA and ADDITIONAL money budgeted that we normally don't get". But again, that's my guess and since everyone immediately launched into shark-in-bloodied-waters mode we'll never really know.

 

[Lauxman]

Nowhere has that been indicated. Jamor has said they have plenty of time budgeted and allocated specifically to bug fixing and cleanup.

Translating from code-geek to English/Marketing, I think he meant to say "we have EXTRA and ADDITIONAL money budgeted that we normally don't get". But again, that's my guess and since everyone immediately launched into shark-in-bloodied-waters mode we'll never really know.

I'm sure it'll be just as high-quality as the "extensive QA testing" they did before forcing this out the door.

 

[Molikroth]

I'm sure it'll be just as high-quality as the "extensive QA testing" they did before forcing this out the door.

This would be those posts that keep getting deleted. Since you're basically saying that they don't do any QA testing. Which again is unfair to the QA team. They clearly have documented a lot of these bugs that we see, the outrage over the TODOs left in the code is a testament to this. At some point someone who doesn't work with the devs or the QA team says "This has to go out at X date". That is the person you should be angry at if you just have to blame someone.

 

[Eled the Worm Tamer]

Nowhere has that been indicated. Jamor has said they have plenty of time budgeted and allocated specifically to bug fixing and cleanup.

Translating from code-geek to English/Marketing, I think he meant to say "we have EXTRA and ADDITIONAL money budgeted that we normally don't get". But again, that's my guess and since everyone immediately launched into shark-in-bloodied-waters mode we'll never really know.

And if they do all their testing in MP (which is how statments in this very thread make it look, and the changes to Robots based on the Dev clash) Its going to acomplish almoast nothing.

Its also liable not to catch things that are poorly implamented in terms of interacting systems producing desirable outcomes, as opposed to clearly broken content.

 

[fuinril]

While I don't know what their plans are in the coming weeks, I would think there's some sort of priority list, and I hope it's something like this:

• 1: Performance
• 2: AI
• 3: Bugs
• 4: Balance

And that in the quality of life patch, the AI gets at least a small revamp, maybe improved/expanded personalities in prep for when they get the Diplomacy update in the pipeline. Don't just fix AI to make it functional, fix AI to make it interesting.

I pretty agree with your priority list, the only difference I'll made would be a distinction like 3 : major bugs, 4 major balance issues, 5 : minor bugs, 6 : minor balance issue.

However I think you're a bit ambitious asking for an interesting AI as that would be a huge amount of work and some bugs are way more urgent to fix (like crisis). A functionnal AI would be OK for now, I can wait for the next DLC for an interesting one.... IF the rest of the issues are covered, that's it....

 

[ragehavoc]

This would be those posts that keep getting deleted. Since you're basically saying that they don't do any QA testing. Which again is unfair to the QA team. They clearly have documented a lot of these bugs that we see, the outrage over the TODOs left in the code is a testament to this. At some point someone who doesn't work with the devs or the QA team says "This has to go out at X date". That is the person you should be angry at if you just have to blame someone.

You cannot blame the person in charge for this, sorry, the devs know their deadlines, they decide the extent of the content, they are responsible for the QA, and they are responsible for the communications they give to the community and to their own management, they failed on every single count.