[Dev Team] 3.8.2 Hotfix Patch Released

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velles

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Personally I disagree with people arguing the leader cap is a bad thing. imo, one of the biggest issues of Stellaris for many years is that wide gameplay was pretty much the only way to stay relevant in late-game. And unfortunately if you just got a "bad" start where you got boxed in early (which was exacerbated by the Common Ground and Hegemony Federation Origins) then it was incredibly difficult to maintain large fleets and high research because you simply didn't have the sheer number of pops to make it happen. For the longest time, the "meta" was tons of pop, massive pop growth bonus, tons of research which offsets any empire size issues. More tech means more resources, larger fleets, etc. The way I see it, leader caps forces you to actually have to make decisions on which leaders to hire, how to specialize them to maximize your resources and has a much stronger effect on tall empires that choose/are forced to settle fewer but larger planets and provides an alternative gameplay methodology to trying to be wide in smaller space with lots of habitats. Because specialized admirals can significantly reduce the burden of large fleets to smaller empires, specialized scientists can generate almost as much research as a planet, etc.

Otherwise without leader cap, Unity spam could overtake research rushing as having as much Unity as possible and a governor on every planet and a scientist assisting research on every planet and an admiral for every fleet accelerates wide empires without restraint. In conjunction with ascensions that make leaders immortal (Synthetic, Psionic to a lesser degree), leaders quickly become way too overpowered and horribly unbalanced. Stellaris doesn't have perfect balance (like nearly every other game in existance) but it needs to avoid these horrible spiraling unbalanced plays. Stuff like this, 1000% bonuses to Death Cult edicts and other really huge issues are a priority to fix over the smaller balance issues imo.

Also, it fits with their design philosophy of trying to make the leaders have more personality. A single person has trouble standing out in a crowd of a hundred compared to trying to stand out in a group of 10.
I kinda agree yet at the same time don't - I'm all for making tall gameplay viable, but probably the biggest obstacle against tall play is the building limit - no matter the planet size there are always 12 building slots.

I'm not against leader cap, even the one that punishes bigger empires more, but currently as implemented it is actively discouraging picking certain leader types like generals. I like the idea mentioned somewhere in this thread that first leader of each type should not count towards leader cap - that ensures that people may always have at least one general.

Governors are also now nerfed and borderline as useless as generals - their traits need to be sector-wide again, because introducing planetary governors directly contradicts "less but more meaningful leaders" philosophy. This is probably the worst and most questionable part of the update.
 
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My Luminary leader is dying in an event. But I made her an immortal Chosen One. But she's still dying? Did I do something wrong?
Immortal leaders are only immortal in that they can’t die of old age. They can still by killed by other methods.
 

Bork_of_Boletaria

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Balance? Sure! Leader cap? Unlikely, whenever we make a long term positive change it can annoy quite a few people. But in this case, the Leader cap being pretty tight is just better design.

I'm one of the, apparently XD, few who does kind of like the limit on leaders, but I also understand the people are upset by. Rather than changing the cap maybe you could "balance" it by making non scientists more useful? I think a big part of the annoyance comes from people being used to exploring with tons of scientists right from the start. Sooo

What if admirals could also explore (but not survey of course) things would free up a leader slot and make your early admiral(s) not feel so useless.

And allow generals to be governors with a different set of buffs. Idr exactly what current governors do but maybe military governors could focus more on crime and stability, or defense armies? They shouldn't be as useful as the regular governors, but making them "better than nothing " or giving them some sort of niche peacetime use would make it not feel as bad to have a general taking a slot either.
 
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Abdulijubjub

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And allow generals to be governors with a different set of buffs. Idr exactly what current governors do but maybe military governors could focus more on crime and stability, or defense armies? They shouldn't be as useful as the regular governors, but making them "better than nothing " or giving them some sort of niche peacetime use would make it not feel as bad to have a general taking a slot either.
They added a defender class for generals, and I really had my fingers crossed that that would give leaders a peacetime role, and a reason to keep them around even when you're not actively invading other planets. Something like +2 stability and -5 crime per level, when parked on a planet would have been nice, even for offensive focused generals without traits.

It would have also been nice if that allowed generals to level up passively so you might actually get a level 8 general, instead of them all dying in invasions.

But the only relevant defender trait we got (as far as I can tell) was one that reduced crime slightly. But enforcers are cheap, so the leader (in total) amounted to less than one pop.

You can already park a general on a planet. They just have to make it useful.
 
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blahmaster6k

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It's been said before, but I really hope they reconsider the leader cap, or at least add more ways to increase it in-game. Whether that's a repeatable technology, scaling based on number of pops, individual caps for each leader type, or something else.

As it stands now, the patch may as well have deleted generals from the game despite the amount of work that went into improving them. Why would I ever recruit any general, even a renowned paragon, if it means I get to have one less admiral or governor?

For scientists, the patch may as well have deleted the "assist research" and "assist cloaking detection" functions from the game, because there won't be any scientists to spare for that when you still have to survey, do anomalies, and excavate dig sites.

All this while the existence of the fleet command limit requires many more admirals than you can possibly have leader cap for in the late game. If they want to let us use fewer leaders, remove the fleet command limit so empires don't have to have a bunch of fleets (each needing an admiral) follow each other around.

For wide empires, there simply won't be enough leader slots to have even one governor in each sector. Speaking of governors, the new best use of governors is to just build habitats in your main shipyard system and stack traits to lower ship build cost to -90% and print almost-free ships. Stacking ship cost governors is a better use of leader capacity than pretty much anything else in the game. Who needs an admiral to buff fleets when you can just have 1000% more ships because of your governors?

Leaders competing for leader slots with other leader types is a disaster pretty good, but could be even better. There are barely even any meaningful choices when the obvious answer from a power perspective is going to be to completely ignore 50% of the gameplay mechanics you can use leaders for and an entire class of leaders if you want your leaders to ever level up.
 
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CMDR Exorcist

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Personally, I think the leader cap is very poor design and it limits the game in the early stages where empire growth matters the most. The intricacies of the limits have been discussed greatly by people here way smarter than me, so I won't rehash, but I do wonder...

Why couldn't a cap be introduced as part of Paragons for a tougher or more restricted gameplay experience? Instead, it's part of the base 3.8 upgrade and is in many ways (my opinion), game breaking.

And to respond with basically "stop whining, we know better" is not something I would expect from Paradox. It's concerning.
 
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Enfield_PDX

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Are you going to take player feedback into account on this at all? The issue with this now is that it doesn't scale with empire size. Confining an empire that spans a third to half the galaxy to the same number of leaders as a one-system nation doesn't sound very logical to me.
100%! It could be we are just flat out wrong or the implementation is a little too tight. I've had a lot of prodcutive discussions with people about this with the community since making this post, but I don't make design calls :D

My reply here was more to not expect an immediate pivot or things to go back to how they were. Having fewer leaders overall and choosing where to apply them at the cost of other areas of your empire is just good for gameplay.
Fewer starting scientists so that you can't just bulldoze through the earlygame without taking a hit elsewhere is something I'm in favour of but that's a personal opinion.


However is the current limit high enough for a players average empire 50/100/150 years in? Should Paragons count towards that limit? are there enough ways to grow it? etc
That's what will take some time to figure out now the update is out and lots of people are playing.
 
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Eladrin

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Are you going to take player feedback into account on this at all?

Of course we are, and it is quite likely that there will be adjustments to the various systems.

Any changes will be carefully considered though. The Leader Cap exists because they are vastly more powerful than they were before.

We recognize that it is on the tight side though, but want to properly explore our options to find a good solution rather than jumping to a reactive one.
 
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Foxosaur

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Of course we are, and it is quite likely that there will be adjustments to the various systems.

Any changes will be carefully considered though. The Leader Cap exists because they are vastly more powerful than they were before.

We recognize that it is on the tight side though, but want to properly explore our options to find a good solution rather than jumping to a reactive one.

Can I make another constructive comment then please to take on board, you present great leadership to your team (and us) and I think we all like you Eladrin, you really have turned this game around, you all have. I don't think Enfields responses are at times all that communicative and to some, can be considered slightly on the side of offensive and disrespectful. I don't mean he / she isn't capable but I do mean that person is definitely a professional, as are you, as am I and many others on this forum and no matter how relentless and unforgiving your work can be, you gotta hold it back and not drop down to everyone else's level. This isn't Discord where you can get away with it, you hold a real mixture of ages and maturity as your audience. People will respond better if you have, one, coherent, openly listening patient voice-esque attitude that doesn't rise but neither drops down to others. You can show people you're listening by just saying you're listening, than combatting opinions on day 2 of release.

This isn't just about being listened either to but also about demonstrating a consistent level of respect, people can handle "no" if you're polite about it but maybe picking battles might be something to consider. We're all on the same side in the end.
 
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Tassadar_Praxet

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Of course we are, and it is quite likely that there will be adjustments to the various systems.

Any changes will be carefully considered though. The Leader Cap exists because they are vastly more powerful than they were before.

We recognize that it is on the tight side though, but want to properly explore our options to find a good solution rather than jumping to a reactive one.
In fact, every update has its fans and detractors alike. And it is also clear that it is impossible to please everyone. I also want to express my thoughts about the changes that were and are now. And of course about the limit of leaders as well. First of all, I want to note that previous patches (especially 3.7.) increased the levels of tactical and strategic planning. So it was possible to create spy networks by coordinating the actions of the ambassador as a master spy, a science ship that actively reconnoitered enemy worlds, a science ship that helped in the detection of cloacking fleets and other ships. (Here, as we see, 2 scientists are needed, And they are also used to help conduct research on planets, explore enemy debris, but this is of course optional)Also, thanks to the disguise, it was possible to bring a cloacking fleet directly to the enemy starbase, and when his fleets are fighting with yours somewhere else, suddenly strike and capture a key system. All this was perfectly complemented by the ENT of the game, where each fleet had its own admiral, the army had its own general, each scientific ship had its own scientist. I am by no means saying that 3.8. there is a bad one. But a hard cap on leaders reduces the depth of tactical planning in the game and the enjoyment of the game's lore (IMHO). The ability to create 10 or 15 fleets in the late game remains, but filling them with vacancies is no longer possible thanks to the leader`s cap. The new leader system is certainly good and deepens the Stellaris universe. But at the same time, in order to go in the direction of reducing the leaders, it is necessary to create the necessary conditions for this. For example: now hiring a general for troops is seen as a useless waste of the limit. What's the point of hiring him? If earlier it was more role-playing and immersed in the game. Not now. Also now there remains a need for scientists for scientific ships that will conduct active reconnaissance, research on planets, anomalies, archeological excavations, and detection assistance. Why not remove many of these items and leave for scientists only really important things like anomaly research, scientific research, archaeological excavations. Give the rest to the ships, with artificial intelligence, for example. Here, in fact, they offered a lot that could save Lore of Stellaris and fully enjoy the innovations. Including a separate limit for governors, admirals, scientists and generals. The dependence of the leader`s cap on the number of colonies, systems, population. The ability to limit the cap for leaders only above level 5. For example, you can recruit commodores instead of admirals who will have some bonuses and restrictions (for example, a fleet that can be controlled by no more than 80 units) and after level 5 you can raise them to the rank of admirals, and already admirals have their own hard leader cap. It is the same with scientists, where at the initial stage they are ordinary researchers, and from level 5 they become chief scientists.
In fact, you have done an incredible job, and I wish you in any case not to stop there) In fact, it will be a pity if the game does not give you the opportunity to use all your tactical and strategic techniques to defeat a cunning opponent. For this is why we love the game - a variety of approaches, various strategies and tactics. Thank you!)
 
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Enfield_PDX

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I don't think Enfields responses are at times all that communicative
That's fair, sometimes I don't give my responses the time they maybe deserve.

You can show people you're listening by just saying you're listening
Very aptly put, I think in my desire to show engagment it's easy to jump the gun, when something much simpler would suffice. I'll take that on board :) especially as I am doing a lot more to gather information and points of view than would otherwise be visible for example.
 
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Of course we are, and it is quite likely that there will be adjustments to the various systems.

Any changes will be carefully considered though. The Leader Cap exists because they are vastly more powerful than they were before.

We recognize that it is on the tight side though, but want to properly explore our options to find a good solution rather than jumping to a reactive one.
I think the basic idea of "fewer leaders" is good, it's just the implementation that is a failure.

Most notably, you need to revert to sector-wide governors immediately, without delay. The twin exploits of stacking 90% ship cost modifiers in a single system and jumping governors around constantly from planet to planet for "optimal" play are devastating for the game and run counter to the design philosophy you're going for. Likewise the 50 governors = 0 empire size exploit.
 
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That's fair, sometimes I don't give my responses the time they maybe deserve.


Very aptly put, I think in my desire to show engagment it's easy to jump the gun, when something much simpler would suffice. I'll take that on board :) especially as I am doing a lot more to gather information and points of view than would otherwise be visible for example.

I respect that, thank you Enfield, I know you're good at what you do and it must be hard to bite your lip and not react sometimes. (Probably a good reason I didn't get into the gaming industry!)
 

A2ch0n

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That's fair, sometimes I don't give my responses the time they maybe deserve
Over all we have a lot of questions raised over the course of the last DD's (me included) and some heavy discussed other threads. It feels sometimes frustrating not get even a notice about the asked topic. A simple "we have it on our list" or some other notification would be enough most of the time.

Of course, sometimes it feels demanding what we (the community) say and sometimes we don't show you the respect that you and all of the dev team deserve. But we do our best most of the time and we can always live with a "no, we won't change that because...".

We provide as much feedback as possible, often from a certain point of view or out of frustration. But always remember this frustration is mostly out of passion for the game.

And i dare to speak for the whole community if i say: Thank you! You all do a amazing job and we appreciate every peace of content we get!
 
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While I think the mid/late game issues with the leader cap (and inability to raise it consistently through buildings/repeatables etc) are more pressing than the early game exploration stifling, I do also want to point out that without scaling even that is a wildly different experience depending on your map size. Sending out 2-3 science ships to survey when you only have a few hundred systems vs 1000 systems is pretty significant.

Overall I'm not a fan of the cap certainly as it is, and I think there could be ways to better cap the cumulative power of leaders rather than simply their overall numbers. In another thread I gave an example of having a cap on the bonus (2% per x type leader to a maximum of say 10%), but I honestly would not even be opposed to shifting the cap to how many destiny leaders you can have (or at least gain access to the picks for) or something similar. I understand the fear of people going wide with how powerful leaders are, but I think there are ways to shift the hardness of the cap to other areas to address that while loosening that absolute hardness when it comes to # cap and/or creating ways to significantly and continually increase the cap throughout the game, ideally based on how much your empire is expanding.

Anyway I don't want it to get lost in the cap debate that the actual leader changes themselves are fantastic. If anything my frustration is that I feel like it would be so much funner being able to fully enjoy the new system and not feel constantly hampered. Either way I'm hopeful/confident it will be iterated on and we'll end up in a good place. And I'm glad the team is not in coasting mode this late in the games life but instead are willing to make bold moves and take chances to keep improving the game we all love.
 
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Any changes will be carefully considered though. The Leader Cap exists because they are vastly more powerful than they were before.
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A fundamental issue is the combination of too many things being arbitrary hand-coded numbers, and not enough things scaling with galaxy size (and possibly related parameters). With sector sizes being fixed at an arbitrary range 4, and governors now being strongly limited by a different arbitrary number, the experience of someone playing on a 200 star galaxy and on a 1000 star galaxy are significantly different. Adding in habitable planet frequency as an additional setup variable probably makes this worse, with additional complications from hyperlane frequency and so on.

I am not a fan of arbitrary numbers that have no basis in the universe of the game to start with, but not having them scale makes the problems significantly worse; it seems highly unlikely that the current sector/governor experience is balanced properly at both the 200/common habitable and 1000/rare habitable starting setups.

Stellaris is pretty good about letting you play a wide variety of sci-fi concepts, but not so good about having them actually affect things the way they should. Why does a science and expansion focused species have the same number of exceptional scientists generated per five year period as a staid, tradition-focused one? Why are there only a handful of people per billion capable of leading a science ship, and they're completely useless without one of these paragons, whereas you can have as many fleets as you want and you don't need admirals to lead them? Why does the range at which you can manage a sub-unit of your empire ("sector") have nothing to do with your level of communications technology, travel technology, social technology, commitment to building management infrastructure, or anything about how your species operates? The list goes on and on.

Additionally, for those of us who are mostly a fan of the first few Xs of the 4x experience, it really feels like the best parta of Stellaris (Explore, Expand) has gotten significantly curtailed. There's no limit to the number of fleets you can have to Exterminate with, and there are multiple, straightforward, and reasonably logical ways to improve your fleet cap; yet in a game whose exploration is best in class and whose fleet warfare is a bit marginal, you've severely curtailed the fun part?

(P.S. I suspect that one of the reasons I don't enjoy the combat side of Stellaris as much is that it doesn't feel controllable. I got pretty deep into ship design, fleet strategy, and so on in games like Space Empires IV and V, where you had a wide variety of meaningful options; even MoO 2 felt like it gave you more to work with. Stellaris tends to devolve to bigger numbers with some rock-paper-scissors on a good day; without a way to do things like vary armament vs. defenses vs. ammo vs. range the ship designs for different races are far too similar.)
 
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Starfury

Ashanti Globetrotter
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Jun 13, 2004
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I think the basic idea of "fewer leaders" is good, it's just the implementation that is a failure.

Most notably, you need to revert to sector-wide governors immediately, without delay. The twin exploits of stacking 90% ship cost modifiers in a single system and jumping governors around constantly from planet to planet for "optimal" play are devastating for the game and run counter to the design philosophy you're going for. Likewise the 50 governors = 0 empire size exploit.
Planetary governors aren't the problem. One-time-effect governor traits are. Hopping these around from sector to sector made just as little sense as hopping them from planet to planet. It just was less work.

If a leader trait applies to a specific location only, it needs to be an effect that requires continuous presence by the governor. Otherwise it's going to be prone to exploits.

As for the -2% empire size tradition, I think we can all agree on this: It's pretty good, but it can be even better!