[Dev Team] 3.8.2 Hotfix Patch Released

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Zoomy

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Would you consider making it impossible to toggle the option to force/allow such empires to be spawned as AI empires?

It could communicate what the intended design is more clearly (especially if the civic description would also contain a snippet about it being a non-AI civic). That could prevent mistaken bug reports from players when the AI gets stuck (since it could no longer spawn with the civic). This solution could also be similarly applied to other origins/civics not intended for AI empires, in the future.

Rather than make it outright impossible, I'd prefer an error pops up when you try to force spawn them in warning in Red Text of Doom that what they're doing is not intended by the devs and will lead to unintended gameplay consequences, that way if you have a reason to want them in anyways you still can but no-one can say they weren't warned.
 
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for a purely RP factor and for my inner monk i suggest minor leaders. they do nothing but wave in the camera on this slots, maybe miniscule boni for the feels.
If all empty leader slots were filled by envoy-like leaders (i.e. just species template, name, appearance, age), it would really bring the galaxy to life. Sure, the governmental hierarchy would be full of traitless unskilled mediocre leaders, but each fleet, governorship, planetary general, troop transport fleet general et cetera would at least be led by a "leader" with a name and appearance. It would create a semi-illusion that something is really going on everywhere. And they would also make the "really skilled" leader characters look better in comparison, while making the envoys stand out less. Essentially, these "redshirt" leaders' only job would be to sit there and look good until they die, and perhaps also provide names to events that concern whatever they are leading (perhaps events that currently create a leader could instead turn a placeholder leader into a "real" leader).

The only exception would be science ships, as they require a scientist leader to function. It could be really confusing to new players otherwise.
(A middle ground could be to allow exploration without a real scientist leader, but notify the player whenever they try to do anything more advanced. "You need to assign a more skilled leader for this task" or something like that.)

A randomly generated “filler person” would be nice, though there’d obviously need to be a way to instantly distinguish their character portrait from portraits of actual leaders.
Visible skill level for real leaders, but not for generic leaders?
Gray background?
Different frame?

Another idea is a unique portrait of a generic “virtual assistant” like Cortana from Halo or those VI hologram assistants from Mass Effect to use when you don’t have a leader assigned to something.

Having the empty slot when you’re not meant to fill the empty slot just feels bad and is a little unimmersive. A little flavor with a “fake leader” would go a long way as long as it’s clear that the portrait isn’t of an actual leader.
I think this alternative would still feel like a more overt "hey, pssst, this slot is empty, wanna fill it?" invitation to hire more leaders. Though arguably, so would every other solution that makes a visible difference. All else being equal, however, I am partial to the idea of bringing more life to the galaxy (i.e. more "minor leaders" similar to envoys).

When you put it like that, it makes sense and honestly, I don't know, it could have been a small Toast notification to say "Rumours from the outer rim merchants say the Blorg have recruited <S-Tier General> <name>" and any number of alternatives - I'm also open to the fact it isn't appropriate to have it work in the DLC - I just wish Paradox would go out of their way to explain limitations / none-functioning things in DLC rather than wait on the community asking the question - which not everyone reads the answer to.
An option is always nice. If players could toggle whether the paragons should be available to AI empires, those who want to experience the paragons and those who want to even the playing field with the AI could both choose to enjoy the gameplay they prefer. Everyone gets what they want, everyone is happy.
(Assuming the AI would know how to use the paragons; otherwise the "even playing field" option would be to just disable them.)
 
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I like the way that tall empires can benefit more from leaders, the way that leaders are more individually important if you engage with the system as intended, and the way that fewer starting scientists means exploration is a bit more spread out (instead of an unending barrage of anomaly notifications for 20 years and then silence for the next 100 years).

That said:
  • The optimal way to engage with the system is not the as-intended way. The optimal way is to hire 50 governors and not have any meaningful leaders at all because no one ever levels up. A great victory for making leaders engaging. /s
  • The optimal way to survey is to never investigate anomalies until after you finish (because the race the survey systems before the AI is still there, and you can no longer easily hire extra scientists to investigate while your meticulous surveyors race ahead). This is not better.
  • The optimal way to survey also involves building multiple empty science ships and tediously microing them to avoid having your scientist ever just fly around. You only need a scientist to enter a system without sensors and to actually survey. You're wasting precious, limited leader-months every time a scientist has to fly across a system to get to an undiscovered one.
  • The optimal way to use generals is to not. This update deleted the general class from the game, right after putting a bunch of work into making them interesting characters (including a bunch of custom art for event generals).
This update also brought (in increasing order of pettiness):
  • -100% empire size, making all ascensions free and techs base cost only (so long as you don't engage with the leader system in a meaningful way)
  • -90% ship build cost if you build a habitat or two, so anyone who doesn't cheese the system is facing fleets literally 10x the size of what they can build themselves
  • -90% fleet upkeep if you're careful about councilors, to support that 10x size fleet. Logistic Understanding is widely available.
  • Using the blocker clearing/building cost reduction governor traits involving 10x as many clicks (as you move them from planet to planet, rather than sector to sector), with them being used without cheese being even more useless. Architectural Interest on a governon on one planet that goes all the way from 0 development to ecumenopolis (without moving them around) saves you fewer minerals in the time to takes to develop the planet than if you'd just taken the +4 minerals per month basic trait.
  • A civic which is about high quality leaders giving you less useful leaders by having the computer randomly select a second trait to save you the 12 months it would take to go from level 1 to 2. +1 leader starting level hurts you unless you're planning on going way above the cap (so no one levels up naturally anyway).
  • Salvager no longer existing (or being crazy micro intensive), since you can no longer afford to have scientists running around salvaging debris when you can only have 10-12 leaders in the entire empire (if you engage with the system as designed).
  • The brand new scientist roles (assist cloaking detection, active reconnaissance) being useless, since it would be ridiculous to waste a scientist on gaining intel when you can only ever have 5.
  • An entire scientist tree dedicated to assisting a single job type on a single planet in your empire, while leaders are a finite resource in your 100+ planet empire.
It needs some drastic revision. It doesn't even do the one thing it's supposed to do (make individual leaders matter) unless you're playing a tall empire for whom leaders already mattered. For everyone else, the correct decisions is to hire past the cap anyway and ignore the new DLC material in favor of the generic stat bonuses of just having more leaders.
This really puts into perspective just how badly the Stellaris team needs an actual game designer. Not a content designer or programmer, but someone who understands game logic, does the math, and spots all these very obvious and catastrophic game design flaws long before it makes it to even the implementation stage, let alone release.

People called many of these problems out the moment they were announced in dev diaries. They weren't hard to see coming.
 
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Our UI in general could use a lot of improvement. The open slot making folks feel like they need to fill it despite the leader cap has been a heated subject of discussion, I feel like we just don't have a solution for that just yet :D
I think that there could be a 'placeholder commander' that exist on every planet and provides no bonus.
 
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This update also brought (in increasing order of pettiness):
  • -100% empire size, making all ascensions free and techs base cost only (so long as you don't engage with the leader system in a meaningful way)
  • -90% ship build cost if you build a habitat or two, so anyone who doesn't cheese the system is facing fleets literally 10x the size of what they can build themselves
  • -90% fleet upkeep if you're careful about councilors, to support that 10x size fleet. Logistic Understanding is widely available.
Agree with everything you wrote, and I need to emphasize that these three issues in particular are legitimately gamebreaking (remember the Catalytic Processing machine empire exploit, and how quickly that was patched out? This is like 5x worse, and for every empire type) and need to be fixed ASAP.

In regards to leader cap: I get the purpose, I'm pretty sympathetic to it, but there should probably be a different cap for each leader type. Say, 5 scientists, 2 governors, 1 admiral, 1 general at game start, with certain techs, traditions, civics, and maybe ethics and edicts, modifying these caps individually. As it is, generals may as well not exist, admirals are rarely worth it, and governors only matter if you're deliberately using them to break the game using one of the above exploits, since scientists are so incredibly essential. Choosing between a scientist and a general or non-game-breaker governor is not really a choice.
 
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What would they simulate in Paragons? Letting the AI get paragons just means that if an AI spawns a renowned leader, there's a chance they'll die within their lifetime, and if you don't go to war with them and see the exact fleet, or open a branch office to see their governer or whatever, before they die, you might not even know.

Which might be ok with 6 empires (you would reduce the player's chance of getting that paragon by up to 6, depending on how many empires spawn with that same ethic), but then when you double that? Triple it? Suddenly renowned paragons never show for players, and frankly, I want to see these leaders. They're fun. They're mixed up by different empire designs so they don't feel too repetitive.

One option could be to have a chance of AI getting a Paragon that doesn't line up with your empire's ethics. Maybe an event pop-up if you have a spy network or embassy with the empire, stating that a renowned figure is there. Maybe the AI would have to have an altered version of that Paragon that has bonuses that the AI could work with better than the existing ones the player gets, but the idea of a Materialist empire suddenly getting the synthetic Paragon followed by a tech boost that threatened your Spiritualist empire could be a fun mid-game shake-up, and it wouldn't 'steal' any Paragons from you.

The legendary ones should definitely remain player-exclusive though.
 
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Balance? Sure! Leader cap? Unlikely, whenever we make a long term positive change it can annoy quite a few people. But in this case, the Leader cap being pretty tight is just better design.
Are you going to take player feedback into account on this at all? The issue with this now is that it doesn't scale with empire size. Confining an empire that spans a third to half the galaxy to the same number of leaders as a one-system nation doesn't sound very logical to me.
 
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Balance? Sure! Leader cap? Unlikely, whenever we make a long term positive change it can annoy quite a few people. But in this case, the Leader cap being pretty tight is just better design.

That's not an excuse, we get to decide how things work. Creating new AI Just for a challenging civic the AI will not use unless force spawned with it is not worth the effort.

Respectfully, I disagree. It was not a positive change and it is poorly designed. Unity upkeep already soft limits your leaders. If you felt there were too many leaders without consequence then just up the Unity upkeep even more so that we need to build more administrative worlds. We did not need another arbitrary limitation that, quite frankly, breaks the game.
 
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  • The optimal way to engage with the system is not the as-intended way. The optimal way is to hire 50 governors and not have any meaningful leaders at all because no one ever levels up. A great victory for making leaders engaging. /s
  • The optimal way to survey is to never investigate anomalies until after you finish (because the race the survey systems before the AI is still there, and you can no longer easily hire extra scientists to investigate while your meticulous surveyors race ahead). This is not better.
  • The optimal way to survey also involves building multiple empty science ships and tediously microing them to avoid having your scientist ever just fly around. You only need a scientist to enter a system without sensors and to actually survey. You're wasting precious, limited leader-months every time a scientist has to fly across a system to get to an undiscovered one.
  • The optimal way to use generals is to not. This update deleted the general class from the game, right after putting a bunch of work into making them interesting characters (including a bunch of custom art for event generals).

This is why everyone hates minmax philosophy professors! :p

9cdcc239-b22f-4164-a53f-e85b02a77112_text.gif
 
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Are you going to take player feedback into account on this at all? The issue with this now is that it doesn't scale with empire size. Confining an empire that spans a third to half the galaxy to the same number of leaders as a one-system nation doesn't sound very logical to me.

The current leader cap does feel way too strict, and the fact that it's a global leader cap means that you'll be pressured to choose an imbalanced array of leaders and leave behind generals and the like, but I feel like the answer isn't "make big empires benefit more".

Something like using policies to determine your leader cap (maybe at a cost of buff efficiency) might make sense. Or just something that says "large empires have more leaders, but it takes resources to maintain all of those leaders and you don't feel their influence as much, and not in a way that prohibitively limits leader exp gain and upkeep and keeps you from interacting with the cool new leader system".

I think the idea is that tall empires will have a more skilled crop of leaders which can make their smaller number of planets and fleets Very Good, but it still fails because they're actively being punished when events reward Renowned or Legendary leaders that might push them over the cap.
 
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Are the Envoys not supposed to count towards the Leader Cap?

I Downloaded 3.8.1.

Do not own Galactic Paragons DLC.

No mods and have never had them.

Started 2 new games as the UNE and both times the Envoys counted against the Cap.

But I'm seeing some people say that their Envoys are excluded from the Cap?
 
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Are the Envoys not supposed to count towards the Leader Cap?

I Downloaded 3.8.1.

Do not own Galactic Paragons DLC.

No mods and have never had them.

Started 2 new games as the UNE and both times the Envoys counted against the Cap.

But I'm seeing some people say that their Envoys are excluded from the Cap?
That's right, Envoys aren't meant to be included in the Cap. If they're showing up there, then something is bugged.
 
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I get the point but this is a non-issue. We make calls all the time about how the AI will interface with X and Y feature. From day 1 the AI doesn't get "Normal" anomalies, they get special AI specific ones that only grant a few resources so they don't "Steal" content from the player. Similar with Paragons now.

There's no slope. We're good.



Our UI in general could use a lot of improvement. The open slot making folks feel like they need to fill it despite the leader cap has been a heated subject of discussion, I feel like we just don't have a solution for that just yet :D
UI improvements overall are a big focus for Stellaris now and in the future patches.
On the note of UI stuff, can you also add to the list of maybe having those caps appear yellow when we go over them and are within a certain range of the cap. They really only should go red if we're way over or our overage is landing us into trouble.

Red to me screams "danger, danger, something is really wrong!" Where yellow is more of a, "hey, this is something you should keep an eye on because if the trend continues, it could be a problem."
 
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Balance? Sure! Leader cap? Unlikely, whenever we make a long term positive change it can annoy quite a few people. But in this case, the Leader cap being pretty tight is just better design.

That's not an excuse, we get to decide how things work. Creating new AI Just for a challenging civic the AI will not use unless force spawned with it is not worth the effort.

I have played Stellaris since release, bought all the DLC except the last one, and with this reply I have lost all interest in the game lol.

Any non scaling cap in a game about building a massive stellar empire is dumb. It was dumb with megastructures, it was dumb with Juggernaughts and with leaders it is absolutely idiotic. As many have pointed out, there is literally no use for generals, admirals will get bumped out and almost removing sector governors(that made sence) to change it to planetary governors(That is more numerous) AND implementing a cap on them is absolutely bonkers.

Game is moving a direction I have no interest in it seems and sure thats fine, but I sure feel I am allowed to be annoyed about. And then this horrificaly arrogant answer from a dev about valid concerns lol.
 
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