[Dev Team] 3.0.3 Beta Patch Released (checksum 927c)

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Eladrin

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Darn, still no define for turning off the Capacity component of Logistical Growth. D:
Every variable for the logistic growth system (and the growth-per-pop, for that matter) are very intentionally in defines for ease of modding. If you set LOGISTIC_POP_GROWTH_FLOOR and _CEILING to 1, it should effectively be disabled and carrying capacity will have no effect on growth.

One of the purposes of the logistic growth on planets was actually to increase pop growth through a portion of the game to partially compensate for the increased growth requirements. I'd highly recommend adjusting LOGISTIC_POP_GROWTH_CEILING if people are changing REQUIRED_POP_GROWTH_SCALE - in fact, one of the things I'm hoping to gather from this open beta is whether or not we should lower the ceiling since we halved the scale.

Huh... I have no idea how this is going to play out, but this is a really interesting direction. I'm not sure if I've ever had bio trophies below 50% happiness, so I'm left wondering what kind of cheese that's meant to prevent. I was hoping for something that changed how they interacted with the growth tax, but this might mean bio-trophies are powerful enough to be worth increasing growth costs as much as machine pops.
It was mostly flavor, but does encourage you to actually feed them and provide consumer goods.

Any word on the bug fix for bio trophies not getting the ring world preference for rogue servitor + shattered ring world?
Not yet, but expect that to get fixed at some point, it is considered a bug that they're not affected by it.
 
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Eladrin

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Same with Driven Assimilator cyborgs incase you weren't aware.
Yeah, it's anything with a secondary species in empire gen - they currently aren't applying the preference overrides properly.
 
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Medical Workers now also increase Organic Pop Assembly by 5%, and increase habitability by 2.5%
What's the meaning of "5% Organic Pop Assembly"? It only works when I have a clone vat?

* Organic Pop Assembly now respects population controls.
Wait, is that a bug? It looks reasonable, and I use this to balance the pop proportion in my empire, aliens grow so fast, that can catch majority species in decades. I don't like to purge species, but the growth weight is strange, the growth often be occupied by lithoid, maybe because of its high habitability?
 

Nebbie Zebbie

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...

One of the purposes of the logistic growth on planets was actually to increase pop growth through a portion of the game to partially compensate for the increased growth requirements. I'd highly recommend adjusting LOGISTIC_POP_GROWTH_CEILING if people are changing REQUIRED_POP_GROWTH_SCALE - in fact, one of the things I'm hoping to gather from this open beta is whether or not we should lower the ceiling since we halved the scale.

...
It seems to me right now from playing 3.0.3 that the S curve is missing the mark, because the slow growth right as colonies start up hurts them for too long (not great in early colonization), and with the lower building slots now, more established planets just tend not to have the jobs to end up near their capacity (so midgame things go crazy as the core planets become breeders that also pile on robots).
When I was playing Rogue Servitors in 3.0.1, I found that things were relatively reasonable on their robotic population with its flat growth rate, but the bio-trophies were an issue because I kept having to move in 3-5 to a new colony ASAP.
Thinking on the gameplay behind this, the problem is that colonies start out with ridiculously high carrying capacity (meaning they need to get a lot more pops than seems reasonable moved in to hit good growth) and going anywhere near full district development actually hurts growth.
Carrying capacity seems to be targeting the wrong thing (housing instead of jobs).

To think about extremes of gameplay, imagine a planet with very little spare housing, no unused district slots, but jabs galore, vs. a planet with tons of district slots, but nothing built and crippling unemployment; the current system says the former planet should have low growth as it's near capacity, while the latter planet should have high growth as it's around half its carrying capacity. Seeing as both extremes are wrong, it's reasonable to conclude that the middle is wrong too, and that's what I'm seeing in games, as my "core" planets are pumping out pops where there's no opportunities, while my colonies twiddle their thumbs despite having abundant opportunity (and a decent few extra pops moved in to promote growth).

To think about "realism", logistic growth theories are premised on carrying capacity being bound by available food, as population inherently wants to be exponential, but having too little food individually increases chances of having trouble reproducing and outright dying, putting a clamp on things. Shelter certainly has an impact on survival, but it can be presumed that overcrowding involves uncomfortable living conditions long before people are living in the sewers, and even then, people don't need much.
What guarantees access to food and other important things to live, like medical care, is generally having some kind of income to spend, and thus having a job. Now, obviously, many spacefaring civilizations have probably got crazy welfare going on, but even still, extra resources from income and social connections generally help deal with unexpected or nonideal situations.

I of course doubt that just pure jobs would work well, as I find there's often few spare, but maybe jobs mixed with housing or other things in some form would be reasonable (it's quite possible averaging current carrying capacity with jobs would do it). It just needs to in some way be the case that there's a preference for having a planet move toward full district and building slot usage as long as there will be pops to come work, as opposed to now where you want to ship off pops at a certain point well before full slot usage.
 
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This exploit is a result of Colony Ships no longer costing pops to build
i'm pretty sure Stellaris colony ships have never consumed a pop on construction.
 
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Tech Noir Synth

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I have read nothing about species with less housing need, if it has now impact on capacity?
As far as I understand, carrying capacity is based on total housing, but does not take into consideration housing usage. In my opinion, it should factor in empy housing in some way.

Because in this current situation, -10% housing multipliers are almost entirely worthless on your pops, since the meta is all about adding housing districts so you have spare housing anyway.

Of course, this also makes the negative +10% housing usage a free negative trait.

So either the devs should reconsider or do something about the housing usage trait. I already told the devs that they must understand how pop efficiency is extremely important now and how Synth pops still outclass all other pops since patch 2.2.5.

One suggestion would be to replace the -10% housing trait with something that is actually useful in this current interation of the game. For example, +10% ressource output, +10% upkeep to make pops more efficient. Maybe even +15% to both, so you can stack it to more than 30% output bonus, like what Synths have. This is needed for Biological pops to make sure they can compete with Synths.
 
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One of the purposes of the logistic growth on planets was actually to increase pop growth through a portion of the game to partially compensate for the increased growth requirements. I'd highly recommend adjusting LOGISTIC_POP_GROWTH_CEILING if people are changing REQUIRED_POP_GROWTH_SCALE - in fact, one of the things I'm hoping to gather from this open beta is whether or not we should lower the ceiling since we halved the scale.
Thank you for providing us with an insight to the design intent here - if the logistic growth curve is meant to mitigate the empire growth malus and not the other way around that changes things a bit.

A few observations that I have yet to fully corroborate with my own gameplay, this is just from looking at graphs and existing gameplay with 3.0.2:
Base growth of 3.0 is too high, but capping it out at +100% from logistic curve is too low (early planets fill out a bit too fast if one does not conquer or spam habitats) in general
=> this leads to an early "sweet spot" for pop growth, there is no incentive to grow worlds beyond 25 pops other than concentrating development on high-value worlds once you determine that you're no longer going to be aiming for max pop growth (for me this is somewhere around 2350 as crisis preparations need to start)
=> renders high-capacity worlds irrelevant for maximizing growth (such as Ringworlds and Ecumenopoleis, but also size-25 Gaia worlds etc) or mitigating the lategame growth slump
=> necessitates Ecumenopolis +50% pop growth bonus (this could be achieved naturally due to higher carrying capacity and a more generous cap, why should a 5-pop Ecumenopolis be growing faster than any other planet at 5 pops? If we're doing a more intuitive growth model this makes little sense)
=> leaves Ringworlds in a really bad spot relative to an Ecu in terms of growth and mitigating lategame pop growth slowdown (whereas the opposite would be expected, both in terms of lore and in terms of resource investment)

I haven't played with the numbers yet to see how the growth curve would adjust, however. The thing is - the pop growth slowdown in the lategame is going to be felt harshly regardless of how much the growth penalty is adjusted (unless it's <0.15 per new pop if my graph experimentations are anything to go by). The reason for this is that while a linearly-growing empire can maintain linear empire-wide pop growth (habitat spam), due to the nature of multiple growth centers splitting said empire-wide growth the discrete nature of the entire thing is going to be really annoying - yes, after 10 years one will have 40 more pops, but in the intervening 10 years there's tumbleweeds everywhere as nothing happens to the population anywhere. Granted, with the adjusted penalty this won't happen as quickly as 2300, but still no later than 2400.

Maybe the cap on the logistic growth curve (the "no more than double" one) should depend on the planet's theoretical maximum capacity? I.e. if all districts were housing districts at maximum housing bonus (and incidentally for regular planets would work out to about 100%, but at least gives more room for an Ecu or a Ring segment). This would make large worlds more valuable even if their actual district layout wasn't ideal (few resource districts), right now these worlds are left to languish with 10-12 districts.

I will provide more accurate feedback with the new numbers in the appropriate thread once I get a few games in over the weekend, these are just thoughts.
 
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I have a suggestion, I noticed that with enemies you can't spy on (Final crises, mining drones, amoebas, etc.) You can never see the ship details of their fleets due to lack of intel. Gathering 100 intel to be able to see those in regular empires is difficult enough already.

Could it be implemented so that the intel level is lowered or at least that ship sensors (maybe some of the higher tier ones) can see those? Part of the fun of the game was being able to create counter-fleets to deal with your opponent, but as things stand now it has come down to having the bigger number only :/
I would agree that this mechanic needs to be updated. If nothing else being in combat and analyzing debris should add to the overall military intelligence against a target. Narratively you will be seeing the types of weapons and defenses used during combat and certainly when analyzing debris. Also, if your code breaking is high enough I think debris should be able to give you bonus intel of all types.
 
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Cymsdale

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Good. I'll try that at once.
Though ....i really would want to try out "become the crisis mechanic" but....having the pirate shipset for the crisis fleet makes it really really unappailing. Any hope of a change on that point one day?
It is quite an odd choice. It makes me wonder if they were workshopping the crisis empire running some kind of anonymously controlled, working from behind the shadows, privateer fleet that you would control separately from your main fleet to go cause random chaos ("which empire is causing all this chaos????! Better use espionage to find out!"). But then time ran out and they were like "eh just make them regular bonus ships or whatever".
 
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Tobasco da Gama

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i'm pretty sure Stellaris colony ships have never consumed a pop on construction.
Could be wrong but I believe they did in earlier 1.X versions (though I joined with 1.9 and I can't recall them costing Pops then).

The colony ships used to pause pop growth on the planet where they were being constructed, but they never actually removed a pop from that planet.
 
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Sadly not at all. Since the Hydroponics Bay on starbases are buffed (at 10 food and this is good) plus the fact that you can put where you want Hydroponics farms... It is very very easy to have cheap food.

In fact... The game is clearly lacking food sinkholes to make Agriarian Idyll a thing at the moment (and sinkholes for unity too...)

I kind of think Agrarian Idyll should have it's own version of a bioreactor that is more efficient. Though, I've been finding that in some empires the reactors themselves are already ok in some situations.

Just a way for them to burn off all that extra food for higher energy output.
 
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Brael

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Why would you WANT to abandon planets in the first place, beyond not being bothered to manage them? Generally speaking, having a planet is better than not having one, so its pointlessly self-destructive to abandon planets.
In Nemesis this isn't entirely accurate, because populations are low enough that taking population density into account is a thing. A bunch of spread out low pop planets means adding more sprawl in order to build another 4-5 city districts just to get growth up where as on another planet you already have that. Additionally it might mean adding another governor, and spreading pops out preventing you from getting upgraded capital buildings. Higher job number buildings aren't worth it at the moment, but you can still hit 40 pops on a planet, all employed, without needing refiner jobs to support it.

Given that these are species that other civs don't take too kindly too either, having a slightly higher concentration is a more defensive posture as well.
 
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Don_Quigleone

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Hi there's a change I think should be reverted:
* Organic Pop Assembly now respects population controls.

Before, you could assemble pops that you didn't want to grow naturally EG I have one set of pops that have rapid breeder, that I let breed, and another subspecies that doesn't have rapid breeder (and instead other useful things) that I assemble in cloning vats. I think this was better, and I don't see any particular advantage to have organic pop assembly obey conventional population control rules.
 
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Eelectrica

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Nov 12, 2016
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Great stuff. Many thanks!

Save game compatible?
Seems to be. When I updated to check out the privateers fix I didn't notice anything wacky really. I was able to upgrade capital buildings and all that. It was pretty much at the end of the game though. Used that save game for the achievement.

Arm privateers works, but late seems kind of useless. Could be ok early I guess, not sure. At 2450 it spawned a 4k fleet.
 
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