[Dev Team] 2.0.2 Beta Patch updated [6.3.2018][checksum 5781]

[esotericist]

Was this an early-game rush strat or something? I'm always swimming in influence with all relevant edicts active basically as soon as my borders hit someone else's.

It wasn't long before I was desperate to find things to spend influence on when I started some determined exterminators after 2.0. I wish there were more edicts, both to help situations like mine (I don't need claims, there are no vacant systems for outposts) and to help make that perk more relevant.

 

[wisephilosopher]

Great point. Could be a good reason to bring back the old "arm chair" general trait. Perhaps limit the general to second wave if there is one. Or give the army with the general in it a much higher withdrawal chance. Of course if you only have enough armies that he has to be on the front line due to combat width it makes sense as is.

All are good suggestions. I don't mind Generals dying in combat but it seems rather immersion breaking that they would be in one of the initial attacking units and not coordinating the overall assault. I have found the planetary combat somewhat more enjoyable with the addition of the fortresses and combat width. However, as I am constantly replacing generals because of death in combat, it makes it difficult to really grow attached to them. Maybe I've played too much CK2 but it would also be cool if they implemented invasion events (like siege events in ck2) that would impact the battle or the commanding units taking part.

 

[Ur-Quan Lord 13]

There's hard and insane mode if you want to give the AI crutches, normal mode is supposed to essentially be a baseline. Stop defending what has now been admitted to be an AI cheat that's hardcoded (i.e. not moddable) and patch it out (either by moving it into the defines which would be better, but I'll settle for it being nerfed down to near nothing).

Normal is supposed to be a baseline difficulty. There's no universal game design code that says the AI is not supposed to get boosts on normal difficulty. Depending on the game, sometimes the AI even gets handicapped on normal difficulty! Simpler games, where it's easy to code an AI that plays optimally.

Normal is the difficulty where the AI gets whatever bonuses or handicaps are necessary to provide the level of challenge the devs desire normal difficulty to provide. That's all. There's no law of strategy game difficulties that they're breaking.

The half mineral maintenance on ships used to be negligible in 1.9 early game. It was 0.4% of ship cost, and base Corvette cost of 100; now it's 1% of ship cost, and base corvettes cost 145. That's a 263% increase. Wiz didn't mention the discount in 1.9, because it was negligible. Now, it is not, and maybe they didn't realize that more than tripling the maintenance made the discount too powerful, and made normal difficulty more difficult than they intended. I dunno.

Late game, the discount was always strong. But, if you've made it to late game, and you're up against a similarly sized AI, and your economy doesn't completely wipe the floor with his, then you're playing with your face. Because the AI sorta sucks. And, if they took out the discounts it gets on normal, I assure you, you would not enjoy it. It would be a pushover. Like, it would be sad, really.

You may say that means PDX sucks at coding AI. I dunno, I'm a software engineer but I don't do game AI. But it doesn't really matter. Let's say they coded a super AI that crushes you on normal without any discounts. The game wouldn't be any more fun, if you're getting crushed because the AI is great, vs it being just good enough and getting discounts. So, what's better:

1. Spend a year coding an AI that has a chance to beat a human who's not asleep without any bonuses.

2. Spend a month coding an AI that needs bonuses to compete, and 11 month coding content and QOL changes.

 

[Thingy Whatsit]

When the opponent's winning, shouldn't any AI-controlled side in a war be wanting peace as soon as it reaches 100% war exhaustion? At the moment, it happily reaches 100% then waits for its opponent to reach 100%, at which point it suddenly wants peace.

There's a wrongly-coded test somewhere…

 

[Ur-Quan Lord 13]

When the opponent's winning, shouldn't any AI-controlled side in a war be wanting peace as soon as it reaches 100% war exhaustion? At the moment, it happily reaches 100% then waits for its opponent to reach 100%, at which point it suddenly wants peace.

There's a wrongly-coded test somewhere…

Uh... Yes, they do want peace. And, if you offer it to them, they'll take it.

They just don't offer it till you reach 100%, because they expect if you wanted peace, you'd have already said so, and would just answer no if they asked.

 

[Daimonin]

Late to the thread but:

> Increased energy upkeep of all Starbase sizes by +1. Outposts now cost 1 energy maintenance

Ouch. I'm going to wait to see how the overall energy economy is affected by that, but considering the shear NUMBER of outposts you need to build... I already have problems with energy production...
I wonder how this will affect synth empires, having this cost on top of their pop upkeep. I don't really play synth much, but I would think it might hit them harder? Or not, since they already prioritize energy production?

Anyone know what the intention behind it is? Is it meant to slow down the rapid sprawl of empires growth in the early game, so more of the galaxy remains unclaimed into the mid to late game? Seems like that would be the main benefit, as empires would by necessity have to only expand when they can afford the permanent energy loss.

 

[Captain Dawnbreaker]

Read my 2 posts further up this page.

Undocumented change in 2.0.2b, they upped the minimum star energy from 2 to 3. It is a little less than the upkeep they added (which wasn't a problem anyway if you handled it right) and you have to build mining stations to take advantage of it, but that's good; it means you have to think, and pay attention, and invest in the mining stations when you need them.

Until a dev confirms this please stop spreading potentially false info. I have yet to see a increase and outposts needing maintenance is beyond painful for a player who likes to play wide and with a thousand stars. I currently have a large chunk of the galaxy and I really need a third fleet due to how slow ships are but can I afford it? Nope because I am struggling to keep energy afloat even with spamming trade hubs. God forbid a crisis happens or a war breaks out and I have to move these costly fleets off the docks then that will send me deep into the red.

Like someone else said maybe have starbases take a few near by systems or something. The cost of influence just to build these things is bad enough, I also have to permanently suppress two factions because there is no way to get rid of them which is just silly and I haven't been allowed to engage in any real diplomacy because of this. And at this point the only time I used a influence costing edict was once at the start of the game because all influence has to go towards outposts. I enjoy expanding and playing a wide empire I should not be punished for this it's what I personally have enjoyed doing since the games release. I feel like with this current iteration of 2.0 and the beta the devs only thought of people playing with tall / small empires. But I digress and I must get back to the never ending chore of spamming outposts sigh...

 

[yafeshan]

Why are all new ascension perks and modified versions of old ones unreasonably weak? Can we get something meaningful out of completing a whole tradition tree please?

Some perks you added are even weaker than ordinary tech or tradition bonuses.

 

[Ur-Quan Lord 13]

Until a dev confirms this please stop spreading potentially false info. I have yet to see a increase and outposts needing maintenance is beyond painful for a player who likes to play wide and with a thousand stars. I currently have a large chunk of the galaxy and I really need a third fleet due to how slow ships are but can I afford it? Nope because I am struggling to keep energy afloat even with spamming trade hubs. God forbid a crisis happens or a war breaks out and I have to move these costly fleets off the docks then that will send me deep into the red.

Like someone else said maybe have starbases take a few near by systems or something. The cost of influence just to build these things is bad enough, I also have to permanently suppress two factions because there is no way to get rid of them which is just silly and I haven't been allowed to engage in any real diplomacy because of this. And at this point the only time I used a influence costing edict was once at the start of the game because all influence has to go towards outposts. I enjoy expanding and playing a wide empire I should not be punished for this it's what I personally have enjoyed doing since the games release. I feel like with this current iteration of 2.0 and the beta the devs only thought of people playing with tall / small empires. But I digress and I must get back to the never ending chore of spamming outposts sigh...

Oh, then I could refer you to my post in a different thread, where I played a hyper expansionist empire, in the first 2.0.2 beta so with plenty of 2 energy stars (of which there are zero in my current game ;p ).

I got my influence cost for starbases down to 30 (fan xeno + the ascension perk) then 18 (purity and expansion traditions), had 7 construction ships spamming outposts to keep up with my parliamentary system influence generation, and also mining stations, and even research stations, had close to 100 systems before I put down colonies 4 and 5, and had 217 systems before finally being hemmed in.

At no point was I negative in energy. Even with 2 energy star mining stations, having 2-4 trading hubs and a few power plants allowed me to stay even, build up a fleet (that scared off attackers on hard difficulty) and even support all those research stations. I couldn't build more trading hubs at first, because I had no more colonized systems (which also means no more power plants).

Then, I conquered maybe another hundred systems, made a covenant with the instrument of desire, and faced the crisis with a size 2000 fleet (10 x 200), which I could handily support.

Sooo, if we're going down the route of calling info false, I call it false that any competent player would find any difficulty in balancing their economy in 2.0.2, or supporting 3 fleets while playing wide, when I was supporting 10, in combat with the unbidden, at 2x upkeep costs.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-rid-of-hard-cap.1075304/page-3#post-23906466

<3

Edit: sorry, was a little miffed that you called my info false, but seriously, have you started a game on 2.0.2 second beta yet? It won't increase mid game, the galaxy has already been generated.

 

[FiddleSticks96]

@Jamor Can the Contingency, and I assume the Unbidden and Prethoryn as well (wouldn't know, since I haven't seen the Unbidden since Synthetic Dawn and the Prethoryn since 1.2) in the coming weeks? The Contingency will only move its fleets to new systems after its construction ships have finished building an outpost and not a moment before. Since the construction ships will only spawn when a new fleet needs to spawn, the Contingency has become a non threat. Let me explain. All you have to do is destroy the Contingency's construction ships. Since the Contingency refuses to guard its own construction ships while they are idle, it is extremely easy to snipe them. The Contingency will eventually have spawned enough fleets that it won't spawn anymore until it has lost a few, which means it will not spawn new construction ships unless you destroy some of its fleets as well. Once you have removed its construction ships from the equation, the Contingency is helpless to advance to new territory or attack anyone so long as you don't destroy its fleets, which won't leave the system they are guarding for a construction ship that will never come. I assume that allowing the Contingency to spawn construction ships apart from fleets would resolve this issue.

 

[macd21]

Any plans to fix devouring swarms (so they can, y’know, devour)?

 

[Captain Dawnbreaker]

Oh, then I could refer you to my post in a different thread, where I played a hyper expansionist empire, in the first 2.0.2 beta so with plenty of 2 energy stars (of which there are zero in my current game ;p ).

I got my influence cost for starbases down to 30 (fan xeno + the ascension perk) then 18 (purity and expansion traditions), had 7 construction ships spamming outposts to keep up with my parliamentary system influence generation, and also mining stations, and even research stations, had close to 100 systems before I put down colonies 4 and 5, and had 217 systems before finally being hemmed in.

At no point was I negative in energy. Even with 2 energy star mining stations, having 2-4 trading hubs and a few power plants allowed me to stay even, build up a fleet (that scared off attackers on hard difficulty) and even support all those research stations. I couldn't build more trading hubs at first, because I had no more colonized systems (which also means no more power plants).

Then, I conquered maybe another hundred systems, made a covenant with the instrument of desire, and faced the crisis with a size 2000 fleet (10 x 200), which I could handily support.

Sooo, if we're going down the route of calling info false, I call it false that any competent player would find any difficulty in balancing their economy in 2.0.2, or supporting 3 fleets while playing wide, when I was supporting 10, in combat with the unbidden, at 2x upkeep costs.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-rid-of-hard-cap.1075304/page-3#post-23906466

<3

Edit: sorry, was a little miffed that you called my info false, but seriously, have you started a game on 2.0.2 second beta yet? It won't increase mid game, the galaxy has already been generated.

I did not call your info false directly please make note of the potentially in front of it. I have a TON of two energy systems and I am running the latest beta version and suffering through the massive CB spam that they did not fix and having to turn off half the games sound to make just the noise spam stop. I personally don't think they increased the energy per system. As for me being a competent player like I said I have been here since the start I know this game very well. I am playing a materialist empire and the lowest I was able to get the influence cost was 40. Even with that lowered cost with the massive amount of systems to claim, factions to permanently suppress, it's a major issue and even tedium as even in late game I am still spamming outposts to get my territory *finished* . On top of the increased cost of research and unity per outpost further punishing wide players.

I have about 14-15 trading hubs with more going up, many worlds colonized outputting large amounts of energy and it's not just the fleet I am paying for in energy costs but defense stations and infrastructure. My current two fleets are both nearing 30k and still expanding so they are not cheap to maintain. Despite all of this I am positive in energy not a lot so I can't build a third fleet for now and if I were to undock my fleets I would go deep into the red. In 1.9 I could deal with this no problem in 2.0 with the slowness of fleets it can be a long term problem.

Your play through has just about meta gamed the outpost influence cost to get it lower down and you are taking over new systems in warfare. Not everyone is going to be doing the same play style as you are so trying to apply your play style to someone else's won't always work. In my case ours is vastly different and I have had to only fight one war and instead done my expanding through means of locking down key lanes and exploration using tons of science ships. Furthermore it sounds like our fleet setups are also vastly different as you have ten of them. The fleets I setup would be impossible to afford ten unless you own half the galaxy so in the end just vastly different play styles. Which is a good thing as long as most of the play styles can have there fun not just a couple.

 

[Red192]

At least you have positive energy/minerals and a fleet that doesn't exceed the newly created 1000 hard fleet cap!

Same Here

 

[Quaade]

Is it just me that haven´t figured it out yet, or can I not somehow get an enemy to dismantle some of his outposts? I have to claim every single one which cost a lot of influence and sometimes I don´t want/need them at this moment and would rather weaken my enemy and creating a buffer?

 

[artemis667]

Ooh, lookie what I see:


NAI = {
AI_MAX_DISTANCE = 1000 # AI considers all systems more distant than this to be equally uninteresting

AI_MINERAL_MAINT_DISCOUNT = 0.75 # AI pays this much (of base) for consumer goods and ship mineral maintenance
AI_ENERGY_MAINT_DISCOUNT = 0.75 # AI pays this much (of base) ship energy maintenance
AI_POP_MODIFICATION_DISCOUNT = 0.25 # AI pays this much (of base) for gene/robomodding projects

I believe I see Wiz following through

.....aaaaaaannndddd I'm gonna mod this for my use. SENSIBLE CAVEAT ONE this may mean the AI provides less of a challenge for me, a casual gamer. SENSIBLE CAVEAT TWO this may have the unintended consequence of making the AI fall over against crises.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1324000614

 

[ShoGuL]

Ooh, lookie what I see:


NAI = {
AI_MAX_DISTANCE = 1000 # AI considers all systems more distant than this to be equally uninteresting

AI_MINERAL_MAINT_DISCOUNT = 0.75 # AI pays this much (of base) for consumer goods and ship mineral maintenance
AI_ENERGY_MAINT_DISCOUNT = 0.75 # AI pays this much (of base) ship energy maintenance
AI_POP_MODIFICATION_DISCOUNT = 0.25 # AI pays this much (of base) for gene/robomodding projects

I believe I see Wiz following through

I have to admit, I find normal trivially easy and even insane AI hardly gives a challenge, so I've found it difficult to understand what all the fuss is about. If cheating AI makes it better able to handle the game, by all means make it cheat.

But it's nice to have modability and transparency.

 

[badmadmark]

Hello , i would like add my 3 pennys

After plaing over a dozen hours in new release i hardly can find a reason to colonize planets , and this was fun part of game in older release .
There are no longer necceassery to bulid shipyards , and they makes huge penalitys to tradition and science cost . Right now 20 systems makes same penality to tradicion like one colony , and resources output from 20 system is much better then from single planet ...


from other hand FTL ,and rework of bases is good idea .

 

[Thermi]

BUG REPORT: Scourge Fleet stays in one system and does not conquer planets. That happened after a lot of its fleet was defeated. The rest of them traveled to this one system and stayed there. The scourge got more fleets over time up to its maximum. I can't defeat those 2M FP in a realistic time and I'm playing on ironman, so the game is effectively ruined for me.

 

[TheIronDuke21]

Are Paradox aware that the fleet manager is pretty buggy and annoying to use or am I just a moron and can't use it? Constantly have ship classes diverging and changing within the template resulting in reinforcing way more corvettes than I originally had in the template. Beyond that it just seems really stiff to use, don't get me wrong I love the idea and even this is an improvement on doing things manually, but it still feels like a battle in its self to use.

 

[Popenhauzen]

Are Paradox aware that the fleet manager is pretty buggy and annoying to use or am I just a moron and can't use it? Constantly have ship classes diverging and changing within the template resulting in reinforcing way more corvettes than I originally had in the template. Beyond that it just seems really stiff to use, don't get me wrong I love the idea and even this is an improvement on doing things manually, but it still feels like a battle in its self to use.

do you have the auto add best designs option enabled? its on the ship designer, on the bottom left corner (not the option for each ship class, but a general option)