Dev Diary Map Improvements

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Pbhuh

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Im going to show a few provinces and changes I would really like to see in the next update. Most of these are going to add some flavour, historical accuracy and attempt to show improvements to the Maps shown off in the Dev Diaries.

I'll be taking many of the maps from the dev diaries and showing improvements both in shape and trying to add in new provinces which I feel would really add to the current iterations and hopefully will inspire the current devs to improve their current iteration.

Im personally most familiar with the Low Countries and Germany so im going to start there.

Here is the current showcase of the Dev Diary about France.

dd_ned.png


Im going to show how for example Beyond Typus did their Low Countries, which I think gives a really interesting take on it and a far more historically correct one for that matter.

20190618164835_1.jpg


Now one major thing Im seeing as a difference is the take on the border between Groningen and Drenthe.

Now whether or not the province of Drenthe is added, I think its vital to keep the Oversticht shape together with it.

This is my rough drawing of how I would change the current map:

dd_ned_edit.png


One really important province to add here is the Province of Limburg, which should be owned by Brabant, like it used to be.

There is room for the province and the importance of Maastricht was quite significant.

3 Optional provinces to add would be Drenthe, which was not as poor as people keep claiming, if someone is interested in some reasoning behind it I can post a explanation I gave in a previous dev diary.

Another would be the province of Westfriesland. While small, it was one of the more rich areas in Holland in 1444.

Amsterdam needs a massive nerf as it was of little importance in that era and the only real city with any significance in 1444 was Haarlem.

Utrecht should really have some more land in the West which has been part of Utrecht since forever.
This would leave room to connect Holland and Gelre together in the Betuwe.

B-ned.png


Zeeland needs to be an island province which is historical. The land now added to Zeeland are only a modern change and seem to contain Bergen op Zoom which is part of Breda at this era.

The last optional province would be the Westhoek as shown in Beyond Typus as well. It contained important cities like Ypers and Kortrijk and in the past also had the cities of Dunkirk and Cassel.

Now to move east to Germany.
upload_2019-5-6_13-46-21.png



There are many mistakes still lingering here, which really need fixing before we move on.

Münster is the big thing here. Its quite wrong with the placement of Meppen and Munster.

As we see here in Beyond Typus we can see how it makes more sense:

20190618174209_1.jpg


Now this isnt perfect either, but it atleast shows Meppen to be the Northern province of Meppen instead of a Western divide.

Here is a historical map of the HRE as a sidenote:

https://external-preview.redd.it/2I...bp&s=737ff0f75a103292315804aa88784d762ccf525a


Another thing is the rectangular shapes of East Frisia and Oldenburg which simply looks weird and isnt historical.

They were much more like two triangles shaped.

dd_n_germanyfix.png


I added many fixes, reshapes and added a few new OPMS i feel would really add to the current North German map.

Starting from Left to Right, the first I would add would be Tecklenburg, in between Upper and Lower Munster.

Second, I would rename Meppen to Lower Munster, Munster itself can stay that way or be known as Upper Munster.

The White stripes represent a possible nation of Osnabruck which was its own seperate Prince Bishopric in Personal Union with Munster.

I would also add a new nation for Hoya as it was not owned by Brunswick either.

I would also really add a new province for Mark, between Westfalen and Berg and give Kleves its second province back.

Furthermore Westphalen/Arnsberg needs to be much further North than it is now.

Paderborn could be similar to Osnabruck as a PU between Koln and Paderborn and an option would be to add the vassal of Waldeck to Hesse, shown with the dotted lines.

In the North, Verden Stade could be split between the Archbishopric of Bremen and Bishopric of Verden, but this might be needed as they would be united later on.

While it was announced that Jutland would not gain any changes, I personally think Schleswig could really be split in two or three, one showing the current divide between the current Danish and German schleswig, other divisions are possible, but this would be on cultural lines.

A third option for further cultural lines would be North Frisia, with Frisian Culture. I also decided to make Dithmarshen smaller and convine it to the river in the north and give some of its eastern part to Holstein.

Going east now, we see the needed split between Ruppin and Priegnitz. Priegnitz needs to stay with Brandenburg and Ruppin could really be its own OPM or a vassal of Brandenburg.

Wittenberg needs to be extend more north past Dessau, while I tried to add wittenberg on the map, i now realise its in a wrong location.

I also attempted a proper shape for Sternberg, but this is less neccesary.

Now in Hinterpommern I would add in the Bishopric of Kammin/Kolberg as well.

Central Germany:

m_germany fix.png


I really attempted to get the shapes of 1444 correct in this map below:

middle germany.png


The First suggestion I would make is adding in a province between Aschaffenburg and Mainz and moving Mainz a bit more south to signify it was south of the river.

This province would represent Darmstadt, in history first owned by Katzelenbogen but later inherited by Hesse, so I gave it to Hesse from the start as its Darmstadt area.

Darmstadt would remain part of Hesse for a long time and I think it makes sense to add it.

I also redid some shapes and showed off a few cities on the map with white.

That being Wiesbaden and Siegen and Marburg, Giessen and Kassel and Fulda.

Fulda should be its own state.

Siegen is a difficult thing. I personally would add a second Nassau province, with the new province representing the city of Siegen and possibly even the smaller counties in the west of this new province. So maybe a Noble estate makes sense here. Now its just a possibility, Nassau can stay as one province, but I do suggest properly showing the shapes.

I included the smaller counties to the west to Nassau, but Sayn for example was technically a fief of Trier. So its really up to the developers to show how they want to do this.

I also attempted to the get shape of the Burggrafschaft of Nurnberg (Ansbach) more like the way it is presented in the lower picture and decided to move Rothenburg north of it.

Next up Bohemia:

bohemiaposs.png


I am personally an outsider and dont have the full knowledge of Bohemia, but I have some maps that I feel help a lot with showing the possible ways to do Bohemia.

I really wanted to make some chances and many others have already suggested lots of them as well.

But for me, I think there are a few necessary provinces that need to be included in the next update and many changes to the current onces would be nice as well.

A big thing I never see mention is the possibility of Eger/Cheb. Eger was an imperial city for a long time until it was given as a fief to Bohemia. I feel to add some new tags in the Bohemia region it would be nice to see Eger have a Eger core on it which could be released. Its culture remained Germany for a long time.

Other important provinces to add are splitting up Brno into the western provinces of Znojmosko (Znojmo) and Jihlavsko (Jihlava).

Opava is the first province I feel is needed in SIlesia and splitting Liegnitz into Swidnice.

Now come possible provinces to add in:

I considered splitting Rudihori into Zatec and Litomerice.
Making room for Prachen.
And possibly adding in Boleslav.

I dont have any info on if this makes sense in historical context, but I feel it would add some more room for conquest.

So I would love info from Bohemians, Moravians or Silesians.

upload_2019-5-6_13-44-8.png


Now in the South I would add some changes, mostly in the shape of the provinces, which I feel were odd to say the least.
dd_s_germfix.png



Augsburg needs to be confined by the River to the east and Ulm should really be north of the River, cause it looks odd having it so far south fo the river.

Donauwörth should also not go South of the Donau.

In the South of Memmingen and Augsburg I would add in Kempten as its own prince abbey in yellow.

Above Wurttenberg and west of Rothenburg, I think it makes sense to add in Heilbronn. I also confined Heidelberg to the Neckar river in the east.

Lastly in the North I suggest giving Zweibrucken to the Saarbrucken dynasty of Nassau in Blue.

Now to move down to the Blue Blob.

dd_france.png


There are lots of things to change here and I'll just be showing off Beyond Typus its France just to compare it

20190618183751_1.jpg


All across I would add many more provinces, to really cut down on some of the big ones.

Here is a rough draft of things I would change semi-based off of Beyond Typus.

dd_france_edit.png


In the North Vermandois would add a nice new province for Burgundy, which used to exist for them, but was removed.

Next to that I would add Laon to the north of Reims to start with the first split for Reims.

In Luxembourgh, Arlon (Arel) should really be added as a province of French Culture in Luxembourgh, which would only go to Belgium in 1830 when it joined the revolution.

To split up Caen I added in Evreux. To the west of Paris I would add in Montfort, as Île de France was a very rich and high population area, which should really have a high density in provinces.

A possible other province in Champagne would be Meaux/Brie in the west, but this would be optional, as I think a more important province to be added would be Chalons in the East.

Auxerre should be moved to the North above Nevers and the current province should be given the name Semur.

To allow for Dijon to be in the Burgundy area instead of Franche Comte, France Comte would need a third Province which needs to encompass Vesoul/Luxeuil.

Nemours would be better confined to the River and Blois needs to be south of Orleans instead of to the west of it, creating two rough diamond shapes. To the west of Blois there could be the province of Dunois or Vendome.

Anjou needs to be further north and not confined by the Loire river.

In Bretagne splitting Finistre is really needed to have both Leon and Kernev/Cornouille
Angouleme could also use a more defined shaped.

Going to Aquitaine, Albret would split the huge province of Aquitaine at the moment and to its east the province of Agenais should be added as well.

Auvergne should also be split into Aurrillac to deal with the huge size of it.

Dauphine also should be split to deal with the huge size of it, I propose a similar split as in Beyond Typus.

---------

Now im done with all the changes I propose, I understand not everything can make it in. But if even 50% of the proposed changes were added, this would really improve the current game.

Please consider looking into the areas oncemore and taking a time to allow for more provinces, new OPMS and other changes.

@neondt
 

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Chehaut

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A bit of a repost, but maybe this helps. I can add a lot more information/context about Drenthe and the surrounding area if needed.

dd_ned.png


I would suggest something more like this.

Just to help you:

1. Add Drenthe
2. Give Wieringermeer back to the sea, it wasn't a thing until 1930.
3. Give Brabant back to, well Brabant I guess, maybe compensate Zeeland with the northern part of Gent.
4. Redraw some borders of the provinces.

About Drenthe: the capital city is Coevorden from the start of the game till 1814, after 1814 it changed to Assen.
Coevorden was an important city on the road from Münster to Groningen because the surrounding areas mainly consisted of swamp.
The majority of the province was not well developed compared to the rest of the Netherlands and there were relatively few inhabitants.

Historically it was a vassal of Utrecht, however it changed hands often.

A short timeline:
Start - 1522: Utrecht
1522 - 1536: Gelre (Yes, Drenthe stayed with Gelre 8 years longer than Oversticht.)
1536 - 1579: Habsburg Netherlands (don't know how it's presented in the game, probably Spain)
1579 - 1581: It became Dutch after Drenthe joined on 23 january 1579 (Union of Utrecht)
1581 - 1592: Spain capture Coevorden after an eleven day siege on 20 september 1581
1592 - 1672: The Dutch recapture Coevorden after an eighteen day siege on 2 september 1592. The Spaniards besiege Coevorden for 31 weeks without success in the period from october 1593 until may 1594
1672: Münster occupies Coevorden from 11 july 1672 until 29 december 1672.
1672-1795: Dutch

After 1795 it goes with the Napoleonic flow, most information about Drenthe in this time period can be found easily.
 

Funlover

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Yes Evreux needs added and hopefully in Denmark Roskilde is also included in this update, but yes this is very well thought out i like it.
 

xiaojunge

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It looks cool,and i like to change some of them, especially france area,it need enough province to match his population.
 

Pbhuh

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A bit of a repost, but maybe this helps. I can add a lot more information/context about Drenthe and the surrounding area if needed.

View attachment 492797
Yes I am completely on board with many of your changes as well.

The wieringermeer needs to go back to the sea, similar to the Lauwers inlet.

One detail could be the island of Wieringen though. But other than that, yes I love more detail in this area.
 

BalticM

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Here is the current showcase of the Dev Diary about France.

I would say France in Beyond Typus is quite awful. Not number of provinces, but say map of Burgundy, or provinces of Dunois (ahead of Blois) or Evreux (ahead of Caux) are very odd choices. I think there was amazing suggestion somewhere well explaining what was Caux and what was Rouen, why it should be 2 different provinces and in general - 2 most important provinces in Normandy.
On the other hand map of Low Countries is FANTASTIC there. Maybe 1-2 province too many (especially the one south of Gelre). But Zeeland as island - awesome.


Anyway I'll put my notes on Italy there if you don't mind. Don't want to open new suggestion.
Many provinces can be added, but I'll focus just on what I think are the most reasonable ones:
northern italy.png


1 extra province to 4 major powers of Italy at the time - Venice, Milan, Papal States & Naples.


Vicenza
It's the only major city & historical province of Venice not in EUIV after next update, so why not to add the last important piece. Vicenza was comparable city in size and importance to Verona, Brescia, Padua and historical province of Vicenza was also neither smaller nor less populated than those. Historical population of all Italian cities can be found there.
Also as I suggest to take away Romagna(Ravenna) from Venice, Vicenza would be sort of compensation for that.
Friuli province can be moved to state of Gorz-Trieste-Istria after this.


Piacenza
It's the only major city of Duchy Milan not in EUIV after next update. In fact - 3rd largest city of Duchy Milan at the time. While eastern half of Emilia-Romagna has 3 provinces, western half - only 2. So there's plenty of room for extra province which would add only better balance.
And I think that Milan is not strong enough now, due to low province number it is easy to deal with and it definitely could(should) use higher development. Extra province would be of great great value for all this. 7 provinces, higher development, 2nd fort in Piacenza/Parma - this is something Milan definitely deserves and what would make Milan considerably stronger.


Fermo
Marche region was more densely populated region than Lazio-Umbria in Papal States era with many mid-sized urban towns there. If we look at map - Ancona province is just way too big and do not represent Marche region in any way it deserves to be represented. Cut of Ancona province in half and playable Ancona tag from year 1444 would make this region soo much nicer.
There are many options how to name southern half of province and Macerata, Camerino, Ascoli are something I've seen in most suggestions, but not Fermo. And it's very strange because Fermo would be the easiest and most reasonable solution to implement.
March of Fermo is the oldest subdivision of March of Ancona appearing well before 1000AD, which carried regional identity well into 18th century before turning into official administrative division. Fermo would be owned by Papal States in 1444 and could look something like this:
_mg_9381_copy.jpg
Macerata and Ascoli were just towns without such wide and clear regional identity as Fermo, while Camerino would be nice addition in case Ancona is cut into 3 pieces since it would be more correct to make it as OPM inland province.


Romagna (Forli)
The most natural solution would be to cut Romagna in half with Venice held Ravenna in the north and Papal States held Forli in the south. But in case of 1 province is preferred - I would hand Romagna to Papal States with capital in Forli rather than to Venice with capital in Ravenna in 1444.
Reasons are simple and more than obvious:
  • Papal States had far greater influence over most of Romagna compared to Venice in 1444.
  • For most of timeframe Romagna was part of Papal States, while Venice possesions were short lived.
  • Forli was cultural, economical, administrative center of pontifical Romagna.
  • Forli was larger and far more influential town than Ravenna all 15-18th centuries long.
I think it's even better for game play to give extra province to Papal States to make them stronger. Especially in case we release Ancona :)
While Venice do not really need this province.


Chieti
Out of 12 historical provinces of Kingdom of Naples - 11 are planned for next map update.
Why to leave Chieti out? Why not to make all 12 and leave no questions about.
Province_Due_Sicilie_1454.jpg
This way Kingdom of Naples will be made up of 4 states, with Abruzzo state (Aquila+Chieti+Molise) now in full control of Naples and not divided between Naples & Papal States.
Chieti was as large as Aquila - the largest and most important cities in Abruzzo-Molise region, region which was as populated as Puglia and more populated than 4-province Lazio-Umbria. See no specific reasons why Chieti should be left out.
Papal States - Naples border could also use some map corrections since now Papal States are stealing some land which belonged to Naples.


Center of Trade
  • Center of Trade should be moved from Urbino to Ancona. Urbino stands nowhere close to Ancona in history of trade..
  • New Bologna province probably should have CoT.
  • There might be CoT in Bari. If any other province was a bit rich due to trade besides Napoli - it's Bari, 2nd most urbanised province of Kingdom Naples with plenty of good size port cities along its coast.
  • Messina province most definitely should have CoT. Due to extreme number of ships passing strait of Messina it was the most important destination for traders coming to Sicily island, especially Venice & Ragusa traders used to come there for Silk. If we check history & geography of Calabria - East Sicily, those would fit better Venice trade node rather than that of Genoa in fact.

Maybe this can bring some new thoughts.
@Ofaloaf
 
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Pbhuh

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I would say France in Beyond Typus is quite awful. Not number of provinces, but say map of Burgundy, or provinces of Dunois (ahead of Blois) or Evreux (ahead of Caux) are very odd choices. I think there was amazing suggestion somewhere well explaining what was Caux and what was Rouen, why it should be 2 different provinces and in general - 2 most important provinces in Normandy.
On the other hand map of Low Countries is FANTASTIC there. Maybe 1-2 province too many (especially the one south of Gelre). But Zeeland as island - awesome.


Anyway I'll put my notes on Italy there if you don't mind. Don't want to open new suggestion.
Many provinces can be added, but I'll focus just on what I think are the most reasonable ones:
View attachment 493354

1 extra province to 4 major powers of Italy at the time - Venice, Milan, Papal States & Naples.


Vicenza
It's the only major city & historical province of Venice not in EUIV after next update, so why not to add the last important piece. Vicenza was comparable city in size and importance to Verona, Brescia, Padua and historical province of Vicenza was also neither smaller nor less populated than those. Historical population of all Italian cities can be found there.
Also as I suggest to take away Romagna(Ravenna) from Venice, Vicenza would be sort of compensation for that.
Friuli province can be moved to state of Gorz-Trieste-Istria after this.


Piacenza
It's the only major city of Duchy Milan not in EUIV after next update. In fact - 3rd largest city of Duchy Milan at the time. While eastern half of Emilia-Romagna has 3 provinces, western half - only 2. So there's plenty of room for extra province which would add only better balance.
And I think that Milan is not strong enough now, due to low province number it is easy to deal with and it definitely could(should) use higher development. Extra province would be of great great value for all this. 7 provinces, higher development, 2nd fort in Piacenza/Parma - this is something Milan definitely deserves and what would make Milan considerably stronger.


Fermo
Marche region was more densely populated region than Lazio-Umbria in Papal States era with many mid-sized urban towns there. If we look at map - Ancona province is just way too big and do not represent Marche region in any way it deserves to be represented. Cut of Ancona province in half and playable Ancona tag from year 1444 would make this region soo much nicer.
There are many options how to name southern half of province and Macerata, Camerino, Ascoli are something I've seen in most suggestions, but not Fermo. And it's very strange because Fermo would be the easiest and most reasonable solution to implement.
March of Fermo is the oldest subdivision of March of Ancona appearing well before 1000AD, which carried regional identity well into 18th century before turning into official administrative division. Fermo would be owned by Papal States in 1444 and could look something like this:
View attachment 493400
Macerata and Ascoli were just towns without such wide and clear regional identity as Fermo, while Camerino would be nice addition in case Ancona is cut into 3 pieces since it would be more correct to make it as OPM inland province.


Romagna (Forli)
The most natural solution would be to cut Romagna in half with Venice held Ravenna in the north and Papal States held Forli in the south. But in case of 1 province is preferred - I would hand Romagna to Papal States with capital in Forli rather than to Venice with capital in Ravenna in 1444.
Reasons are simple and more than obvious:
  • Papal States had far greater influence over most of Romagna compared to Venice in 1444.
  • For most of timeframe Romagna was part of Papal States, while Venice possesions were short lived.
  • Forli was cultural, economical, administrative center of pontifical Romagna.
  • Forli was larger and far more influential town than Ravenna all 15-18th centuries long.
I think it's even better for game play to give extra province to Papal States to make them stronger. Especially in case we release Ancona :)
While Venice do not really need this province.


Chieti
Out of 12 historical provinces of Kingdom of Naples - 11 are planned for next map update.
Why to leave Chieti out? Why not to make all 12 and leave no questions about.
View attachment 493415
This way Kingdom of Naples will be made up of 4 states, with Abruzzo state (Aquila+Chieti+Molise) now in full control of Naples and not divided between Naples & Papal States.
Chieti was as large as Aquila - the largest and most important cities in Abruzzo-Molise region, region which was as populated as Puglia and more populated than 4-province Lazio-Umbria. See no specific reasons why Chieti should be left out.
Papal States - Naples border could also use some map corrections since now Papal States are stealing some land which belonged to Naples.


Center of Trade
  • Center of Trade should be moved from Urbino to Ancona. Urbino stands nowhere close to Ancona in history of trade..
  • New Bologna province probably should have CoT.
  • There might be CoT in Bari. If any other province was a bit rich due to trade besides Napoli - it's Bari, 2nd most urbanised province of Kingdom Naples with plenty of good size port cities along its coast.
  • Messina province most definitely should have CoT. Due to extreme number of ships passing strait of Messina it was the most important destination for traders coming to Sicily island, especially Venice & Ragusa traders used to come there for Silk. If we check history & geography of Calabria - East Sicily, those would fit better Venice trade node rather than that of Genoa in fact.

Maybe this can bring some new thoughts.
@Ofaloaf


Thank you for your useful feedback on Italy. I would have wanted my own but since I haven't dont my own research on it I would have to rely on others works which is kinda pointless.

Indeed the France update is a dated part of Beyond Typus hence I suggested some additions beyond it, but I think taking it for a base to start of is perfect because it has a lot of provinces already that would really add to the game.

Blois is a major needed province, it's just sad how Paradox showed off its placement in the Dev diary hence I tried to correct it :p

And Carcassonne missing is kinda sad xP.
 

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In the italian map changes I still wish to see a Valtellina province and Perugia as a vassal state of the pope. I don't have a lot of hope for their addition though...
 
List of Suggested New Provinces

Pbhuh

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Suggested new provinces with information about them and possible changes to other provinces:

Low Countries Region:

New Provinces
1. Limburg - Restore the old province of Limburg that was repurposed into Opper Gelre with its capital of Maastricht. A very important city with much history about it.
2. Drenthe - A possible extra province for Utrecht with low development but would add a nice historical division of the 7 United Low Countries (Dutch Republic). It can stay as a dutch culture for now, but if it were correct it should be Westphalian.
3. Ypres/Westhoek/Westvlaanderen - A province containing the western cities of the County of Flanders. Some of its territory would later on be incorporated into the Kingdom of France as the region known as French Flanders. To this day the culture here remains Flemish, even across the border.
4. Westfriesland - A unique province with many small trading cities and ports. Includes Alkmaar, Hoorn, the island of Texel and Wieringen. Smaller places like Enkhuizen, Den Helder and Medemblik. The culture is a dispute, but in my opinion their culture in 1444 still remained as a frisian culture province, while the spoken language of frisian started to dissapear before 1444, their unique dialect and culture remained for long.

Changes to Provinces
1. Amsterdam/Noord-Holland - Now this is a huge issue in the current game in my opinion. It remains as one of the highest development province in the low countries while this is wholefully inaccurate. In the start of the game Amsterdam was nothing more than a fishing village. With very low population, being easily overshadowed by Haarlem but even if we include Haarlem in its development it should be nerfed hard. Its trade center should be nothing more than a possible 1 tier trade post or even lose it entirely.
2. Vlaanderen/Brugge - And here comes the second part to the Amsterdam issue. Brugge is wholefully underdeveloped for its 1444 startdate. It was THE city in the north. The biggest trading centre, had its own kantor of the Hanze. It should have the trade post of Amsterdam and have its development increased. Vlaanderen should be the biggest development country in the Low Countries.
3. Antwerp - While being much more important than Amsterdam, it didnt grow to prominence till 1500 and had its peak at the beginning of the Dutch Revolt.
There should be an event to shift these 3 trade cities and their development and tradepost around, based on things that happen. While there is an argument for railroading the dutch history somewhat, I believe it would be good to see Antwerp stay rich if it is held within the Dutch Republic.
- Brugge had another issue, the golden inlet near the Zwin turned dry and sanded which make access to the city harder and harder, many attempts were made to build new cities to still have access to the sea, such as Damme. But only recently has Zeebrugge returned some of its capacities. A historical event to hit Brugge would be nice, but possibly a canal to connect Brugge to the sea again could be very interesting.
Amsterdam only really grew because of the decline of Antwerp and the influx of Flemish merchants and burghers.

4. Rysel/Lille - I am of course not knowledged on what Paradox is planning in the next update, but from what I can tell its name being Rysel seems off. It was a walloon city and should only be Rysel if it has Flemish culture. The culture should really be Walloon/Picard.

Other things such as simple name changes might be in order, but im less worried about that.

North Germany:

New Provinces:

1. Tecklenburg - The county of Tecklenburg and added to it, the county of Bentheim. Both were small counties seperating the Prince Bishopric from Münster from itself, and only later would Munster conquer areas near the Ems to connect its areas back up. I feel it makes sense to add this area as a unique small province, with some interesting history, being semi-linked with the Netherlands on multiple occasions. It includes cities such as Tecklenburg, Lingen and Bentheim. Lingen was shortly owned by the Orange Dynasty in 1600, till the death of William the Third in aroudn 1700.
2. Mark - A small county between Arnsberg/Westfalen and Berg. With its most prominent city of Hamm. Located on the river Lippe. It was held in union with Cleves.
3. 3 Provinces of Schleswig - A possible split of Schleswig between Abenraa/Sonderburg/Haderslev - Schleswig/Flensburg - and Nordfriesland with its many isles and the smaller cities of Wyk of Föhr and Husum and the sunken city of Rungholt, with Frisian culture.
4. Ruppin & Priegnitz - Ruppin was an independant county in the mark of Brandenburg and did not include Priegnitz, which was owned by Brandenburg. Adding this in would allow for adding in a new nation without hurting Brandenburg too hard and allowing Brandenburg to still reach Altmark without needing military access.
5. Waldeck. A small county which was a vassal (fief) of Hessen. It remained independant for quite a long time. It would gain Pyrmont later on and would remain until 1918.

South Germany:

1. Heilbronn - A imperial city on the neckar. An interesting area above Wurttemburg and a nice place too add.
2. Kempten - A prince abbacy. South of Memmingen and Augsburg.
3. Saarbrucken/Zweibrucken - A design decision. Personally I think it makes more sense to add in this province with its Nassau dynasty than Zweibrucken and it remains to this day as a unique part of Germany.

---

If I have more time I'll elaborate more on the French provinces and changes.
 

BalticM

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South Germany:

I think I would remove some provinces from Germany rather than add now :)
While other parts of the world are still waiting for their historical provinces and regions, in Germany provinces with no history are created.

Say new Bavarian provinces:
  • Donauworth
  • Freising
  • Rosenheim
All 3 looks like "space filler" provinces.
While Innviertel province can be enlarged and renamed into Burghausen as acc. historical division.
There was fantastic Bavarian suggestion and all was needed just to copy/paste Bavarian map from there which is based on divisions of Bavarian Circle + imperial city Regensburg & Bishoprics Salzburg & Passau:
Bav.png


2 new Bavarian provinces and 9 in total would have been perfect balance, given that neighboring circles of Swabia and Franconia boasted larger cities and higher population densities than Bavaria.
And now...
11(12) provinces to Bavaria and 11 to Bohemia-Moravia which was nearly twice as large, three times as populous and with greater urbanisation than Bavaria - just not logical to put them on same scale..
Bavaria-Landshut and Bavaria-Munich could start with 2, Bavaria-Ingolstadt with 1 province instead of 3/3/2. Those 3 extra provinces seem completely unnecessary.
 
Last edited:

Pbhuh

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I think I would remove some provinces from Germany rather than add now :)
While other parts of the world are still waiting for their historical provinces and regions, in Germany provinces with no history are created.

Say new Bavarian provinces:
  • Donauworth
  • Freising
  • Rosenheim
All 3 looks like "space filler" provinces.
While Innviertel province can be enlarged and renamed into Burghausen as acc. historical division.
There was fantastic Bavarian suggestion and all was needed just to copy/paste Bavarian map from there which is based on divisions of Bavarian Circle + imperial city Regensburg & Bishoprics Salzburg & Passau:
View attachment 494957

2 new Bavarian provinces and 9 in total would have been perfect balance, given that neighboring circles of Swabia and Franconia boasted larger cities and higher population densities than Bavaria.
And now...
11(12) provinces to Bavaria and 11 to Bohemia-Moravia which was nearly twice as large, three times as populous and with greater urbanisation than Bavaria - just not logical to put them on same scale..
Bavaria-Landshut and Bavaria-Munich could start with 2, Bavaria-Ingolstadt with 1 province instead of 3/3/2. Those 3 extra provinces seem completely unnecessary.

In my opinion removing provinces already added is bad. New provinces need to stay but can be reworked into something better.

This allows for future areas also getting similar treatment.
 

Niptium

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Great contribution. I've been saying since 2013 that Zeeland should be an archipelago province.
 

BalticM

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In my opinion removing provinces already added is bad. New provinces need to stay but can be reworked into something better.

This allows for future areas also getting similar treatment.

Just move them to Silesia, lots of potential provinces there! :D

Seriously, comparing stats of Germany-Austria census of 1820, Silesia looks far better than Circle of Bavaria area yet receives no attention at all.
Actually Bavarian population and town densities in 1820 are inferior to all the surrounding areas except Alps in the south, so giving it the highest province density (and development I guess) is bizarre. And I don't think that situation in 1444 was strikingly different.
Rough stats taken out from source above:

Bavarian Circle (incl. Innviertel & Salzburg)
  • 1.5 mln population
  • 60 towns
  • 45k km2 area
  • 12 provinces
Franconian Circle
  • 1.5 mln population
  • 120 towns
  • 25k km2 area
  • 7 provinces
Swabian Circle
  • 2.5 mln population
  • over 200 towns
  • 40k km2 area
  • 9 provinces
Bohemia
  • 3.3 mln population
  • 277 towns
  • 52k km2 area
  • 8 provinces
Moravia (incl. Austrian Silesia - Opava)
  • 1.8 mln population
  • 120 towns
  • 26 km2 area
  • 3 provinces
Silesia (incl. Gorlitz, but without Opava)
  • 2.1 mln population
  • 140 towns
  • 40k km2 area
  • 6 provinces (incl. Gorlitz)

All Bohemian lands (Bohemia-Moravia-Silesia) could use some more love in general, yet I understand that Bohemia is probably nerfed due to game play reasons.

South Germany
  • 5.5 mln population
  • 400 towns
  • 110 km2 area.
  • 28 provinces
Bohemian lands
  • 7.2 mln population (~7.6 mln incl. all Lusatia)
  • 540 towns
  • 120 km2 area
  • 17 provinces
 

Pbhuh

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I think I would remove some provinces from Germany rather than add now :)
While other parts of the world are still waiting for their historical provinces and regions, in Germany provinces with no history are created.

Say new Bavarian provinces:
  • Donauworth
  • Freising
  • Rosenheim
All 3 looks like "space filler" provinces.
While Innviertel province can be enlarged and renamed into Burghausen as acc. historical division.
There was fantastic Bavarian suggestion and all was needed just to copy/paste Bavarian map from there which is based on divisions of Bavarian Circle + imperial city Regensburg & Bishoprics Salzburg & Passau:
View attachment 494957

2 new Bavarian provinces and 9 in total would have been perfect balance, given that neighboring circles of Swabia and Franconia boasted larger cities and higher population densities than Bavaria.
And now...
11(12) provinces to Bavaria and 11 to Bohemia-Moravia which was nearly twice as large, three times as populous and with greater urbanisation than Bavaria - just not logical to put them on same scale..
Bavaria-Landshut and Bavaria-Munich could start with 2, Bavaria-Ingolstadt with 1 province instead of 3/3/2. Those 3 extra provinces seem completely unnecessary.

For a while now I wanted to properly respond to this with ideas of my own.

So if we look at your map,

this map:
Bayern_nach_der_Teilung_1392.png


and the current bavaria in the Dev Diary.

upload_2019-5-6_13-44-8.png


I think in essense its mostly right. It keeps the balance somewhat in check and allows if bavaria is united once more to be strong. Freising probably could use a core and heavy autonomy + church estate to represent the small Prince Bishopric of Freising. The provinces arent too small. They are all aprox the same size.

Donauworth was an imperial city if I am correct so guess it could have a core as well. It also semi-represents Nordlingen and other impeiral cities in the area.


Oettingen-map.png


Some further corrections I would like to make though, i will also add them to the main post:

Central Germany:

m_germany fix.png


I really attempted to get the shapes of 1444 correct in this map below:
middle germany.png


The First suggestion I would make is adding in a province between Aschaffenburg and Mainz and moving Mainz a bit more south to signify it was south of the river.

This province would represent Darmstadt, in history first owned by Katzelenbogen but later inherited by Hesse, so I gave it to Hesse from the start as its Darmstadt area.

Darmstadt would remain part of Hesse for a long time and I think it makes sense to add it.

I also redid some shapes and showed off a few cities on the map with white.

That being Wiesbaden and Siegen and Marburg, Giessen and Kassel and Fulda.

Fulda should be its own state.

Siegen is a difficult thing. I personally would add a second Nassau province, with the new province representing the city of Siegen and possibly even the smaller counties in the west of this new province. So maybe a Noble estate makes sense here. Now its just a possibility, Nassau can stay as one province, but I do suggest properly showing the shapes.

I included the smaller counties to the west to Nassau, but Sayn for example was technically a fief of Trier. So its really up to the developers to show how they want to do this.

I also attempted to the get shape of the Burggrafschaft of Nurnberg (Ansbach) more like the way it is presented in the lower picture and decided to move Rothenburg north of it.

Next up Bohemia:

Země_Koruny_české.jpg

bohemiaposs.png


I am personally an outsider and dont have the full knowledge of Bohemia, but I have some maps that I feel help a lot with showing the possible ways to do Bohemia.

I really wanted to make some chances and many others have already suggested lots of them as well.

But for me, I think there are a few necessary provinces that need to be included in the next update and many changes to the current onces would be nice as well.

A big thing I never see mention is the possibility of Eger/Cheb. Eger was an imperial city for a long time until it was given as a fief to Bohemia. I feel to add some new tags in the Bohemia region it would be nice to see Eger have a Eger core on it which could be released. Its culture remained Germany for a long time.

Other important provinces to add are splitting up Brno into the western provinces of Znojmosko (Znojmo) and Jihlavsko (Jihlava).

Opava is the first province I feel is needed in SIlesia and splitting Liegnitz into Swidnice.

Now come possible provinces to add in:

I considered splitting Rudihori into Zatec and Litomerice.
Making room for Prachen.
And possibly adding in Boleslav.

I dont have any info on if this makes sense in historical context, but I feel it would add some more room for conquest.

So I would love info from Bohemians, Moravians or Silesians.
 

BalticM

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So I would love info from Bohemians, Moravians or Silesians.

Flawless map of Bohemia-Moravia is there.
And not only map.. When you see Pardubice and Ostrava provinces you understand that such amazing suggestions as above were ignored. And that's sad.
I came up to exactly same map setup for Bohemia-Moravia myself, and surprise surprise - you came up for the same too :)

Silesia should be split into 5-province Lower Silesia and 3-province Upper Silesia.
Upper Silesia is easy:
  • Opole
  • Ratibor
  • Opava - (represents both Opava & Teschen as both were part of Austrian Silesia later, named Opava as Opava was capital of this combined province)
Lower Silesia not so easy:
  • Breslau
  • Liegnitz
  • Glogau
  • maybe Swidnice
  • anything of some 10 other Duchies..
 

AirikrStrife

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For me most important additions:
Limburg in Low Countries
Bentheim-Tecklenburg-Lingen in Westfalen
Basel in Switzerland
Mark (eventually removing Dortmund)
overhaul of Brandenburg (got a thread on the topic)
Overhaul of Schleswig-Holstein (Got a thread on this too)
Some better drawn borders in general

I would like:
County of Zollern
County of Aosta
Drenthe
Split Luxemburg

A lt of good suggestions in this thread
 

AndrejK

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Given the independence of Graubuenden, will there be Rhaetian culture? You know, for Chur, Ilanz, Friuli to represent the Rhaeto-Romance languages?
 

Pbhuh

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Given the independence of Graubuenden, will there be Rhaetian culture? You know, for Chur, Ilanz, Friuli to represent the Rhaeto-Romance languages?
You should ask the developers, but for example in Beyond Typus I do believe Romansch culture exists. I personally would like it, but there may be some issues with Switzerland then. I think having German Swiss and Romansch and French (Arpitan,) would be interesting. But the country probably would need some event to make sure that Switzerland gains extra culture slots and gets a free accepted culture.
 

JackSlater

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You should ask the developers, but for example in Beyond Typus I do believe Romansch culture exists. I personally would like it, but there may be some issues with Switzerland then. I think having German Swiss and Romansch and French (Arpitan,) would be interesting. But the country probably would need some event to make sure that Switzerland gains extra culture slots and gets a free accepted culture.
I think, it's a good idea to add a "Confederacy" government type with bonus to maximum number of accepted cultures. Or add new mechanic into "Confederacy": more accepted cultures - more prosperity grown/separatism reduction/other buffs.
 

Wenceslaus II.

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