Hello guys!

So today we will be talking about some changes we have made to make our combat less bloody, which has particularly been an issue since patch 2.4. We have also worked on making the outcome of entire wars not be decided in one stroke by whomever happens to have pissed off Lady Fortuna...

First off, we have adopted the “shattered retreat” from EU4, meaning when an army is defeated it will run back to somewhere relatively safe so that the enemy can’t keep ping-ponging it until it is annihilated. Peasant rabble that rises against your enlightened and glorious rule, however, will immediately disperse on defeat so you don’t have to chase them down. But nobles within your realm that betray you and revolt will try and run for a safe haven.

The second feature we have added is that while your damaged army is at home it will reinforce its levies directly (rather than the Holding garrison), meaning you can choose if you want to employ the garrisoned levies immediately by dismissing and re-raising your levies, or decide it is too risky (since your army will then be split all over your Kingdom and be easy pickings for the enemy) and instead choose to have your army stand back and rest for a while and be slowly refilled with troops instead.

The equation for how losses were calculated has also been changed. Before, it was based on the troops getting damaged by almost exponential amounts. This could, in some cases, cause really ridiculous damage like 2 million casualties, when it was armies of thousands fighting each other. This has been changed, and the associated values tweaked severely to prevent the crazy casualties yet still ensure that enough soldiers die in battles. For math nerds this is how it works now:

Spoiler

Defending means here the unit taking damage, both units will be defending and attacking at the same time and does not denote who initiated the combat. DamagePerMan is a value calculated as a even distribution of the total damage each soldier takes.

((DamagePerMan * AmountOfDefendingTroops) / DefenseValue) * AmountOfDefendingTroops = LossesInTroops

Has been changed to

(DamagePerMan * AmountOfDefendingTroops) / DefenseValue = LossesInTroops

Not a very big change but it does have profound effects on the result.

Beside simple combat mechanic changes there have been some improvements and bug fixes to the AI to give players a better challenge, focusing mostly on making allied AIs coordinate better between themselves. Oh, and the Mongol AI has been given its balls back, making them a lot more aggressive than they ever were before...

You asked for it….

 

[Loderingo]

It does not. Both AI and player armies shatter, and noone teleports. They run away and you can follow them.

So let me get this straight. Let's say you have an army of 10k and defeat an army of 7k. After the battle you have 7k left and they have 3k. They now split into 3 armies of 1k each and head off into separate directions. Doesn't this just mean that you should now split your 7k into 3 and send each off after a different stack. Doesn't this just mean more chasing down and playing ping pong?

 

[Korashy]

The AI use that tactic extensively? They reinforce their armies in ways we as a player can´t do to the massive micromanagement and lessen infoview. They dismiss the smaller armies inside the army, in order to reraise them. They know exactly which have suffered many losses and which have reinforced enough to make a difference.



And when exactly does this happen in EU4? because it never does that, and usually also depend on morale in general how far they go. Usually they escape to first safe fort or the place furthest away from the enemy if no safe forts are around.

Forts are a new addition, and ck2 has no forts. If we really need shattered retreat, then it should come with tons of attrition for the retreating army to simulate desertions and people dying during a "forced" march

 

[DesNibelungen]

Thank you PDS! And when a few people inevitably whine that the Mongols are too hard now, please ignore them!

 

[AvroLancaster]

It might not look like it, but these are the most important changes made yet to the game.

 

[ruzen]

More "Reasonable" challenge and "clever" AI is what I like. Finally I like the way devs think about last chapter of ck2 =) After all these years only core CK2 fans lelf here anyways. Please continue this mentality

 

[Moah]

So let me get this straight. Let's say you have an army of 10k and defeat an army of 7k. After the battle you have 7k left and they have 3k. They now split into 3 armies of 1k each and head off into separate directions. Doesn't this just mean that you should now split your 7k into 3 and send each off after a different stack. Doesn't this just mean more chasing down and playing ping pong?

The shattered retreat doesn't mean the army actually splits in several subarmies. Just that it runs away to a relative safe space.

 

[Zolotaya]

Thank you for the DD, Groogy.

I am neutral in feelings towards the featured shattered armies and replenishment mechanics. I am positively inclined towards the more aggressive horde ai (assuming the aggressive behavior is not limited to Mongol culture only).

My view will ultimately depend on implementation. The shattered armies and replenishment features seems ideal to be influenced by the leaders in charge of the armies in the field.

• Will a commander with the Strategist focus have an advantage in retreating over a commander with the Wroth trait?
• Will a commander with the Craven trait react differently than a commander with the Brave trait?
• Will an Organizer have an advantage over others with retreat and/or reinforcements?
• Will a Winter Soldier have advantages in Winter to both retreat and replenishment?

These systematic tie-ins will be essential to make or break the final deployment and the utility of older features within the new systems may prove key. I really need more info here because the vision is exiting but as always the final details are what matters here.

 

[DmUa]

Dislike the control in EU4, not the info that rebels are about to rise. But it´s too easy to manage and control, since you know when they hit 90 % you should prepare for a revolt. They should add some element of surprice to it, while giving you the info that people are mad at you and how mad they are

- last time i checked CK2 and EU4 were strategy games and not lotteries were you just sit and wait till you eventually win... maybe win. Having mechanics that allows you to ether be prepared or even preventing rebellion is much better for strategy game that just sitting and doing nothing.

 

[Morte66]

The shattered retreat doesn't mean the army actually splits in several subarmies. Just that it runs away to a relative safe space.

As the game stands now: I beat an army, they run one province. If I don't follow to wipe them out they maybe start a nuisance counter-siege, or try to join up with another unit.

Under the new system: they run and keep running until they get somewhere they feel safe, every time? Do I have that right? But I can still chase them -- will they be getting any bonuses to movement they they wouldn't get now? Is it practical to pursue them to destruction in "normal" play?

 

[Quaade]

- last time i checked CK2 and EU4 were strategy games and not lotteries were you just sit and wait till you eventually win... maybe win. Having mechanics that allows you to ether be prepared or even preventing rebellion is much better for strategy game that just sitting and doing nothing.

Being prepared and preventing can be done in other ways, that doesn´t give away too much. I would like to have to overdo my efforts to prevent rebels, as I would like to underdo it and have it pop up when least needed.

As stated, they could show an estimate that could mean anything from this month till 2 years and an estimate at how mad they are (revoltrisk) instead of knowing exactly when they stop being mad at you

No it´s not the lottery, but it´s not scheduled workstation either where you know exactly when the next shipment arrive

 

[Ilyasviel]

- last time i checked CK2 and EU4 were strategy games and not lotteries were you just sit and wait till you eventually win... maybe win. Having mechanics that allows you to ether be prepared or even preventing rebellion is much better for strategy game that just sitting and doing nothing.

Having to react to unexpected things is also a part of grand strategy. Not everything should be known to a ruler of a realm.

 

[Ashagar]

Yes, some people play the entire game, I for instance almost always play from the earliest start to the end of the game unless Murphy raises its head and hands me defeat, often as either dukes or patricans though sometimes I will play kings of kingdoms I formed like Ireland or Wales.

 

[Accrsd]

for the shattered retreats.. if it's a defensive army will it receive the new defensive recruitment ability while running, Also will reinforcement be balanced by increased expenses like it is with retinue? I'm just already having nightmare images of what this may mean for trying to attack Abbasid if it isn't balanced against their blobby butts.

 

[lolciokuba]

Great to hear about the changes, especially about the Mongols, Horse Lords which i think was a great expansion in itself was kinda ruined for me by poor performance of Horse Lords from Mongolia

 

[DmUa]

Being prepared and preventing can be done in other ways, that doesn´t give away too much. I would like to have to overdo my efforts to prevent rebels, as I would like to underdo it and have it pop up when least needed.

- or it could be done like in other more modern Pdx game - EU4.

As stated, they could show an estimate that could mean anything from this month till 2 years and an estimate at how mad they are (revoltrisk) instead of knowing exactly when they stop being mad at you

- in CK2 revolt risk does not diminishes in time, it ether present or not, game doest even differentiate between provincial RR and realm wide RR, for now you can literally sit on realm wide +5 RR and never see a rebellion or be literally decimated by liberation rebellion that started from +1RR province and were reinforced 3 time in a row in a matter of few month.

No it´s not the lottery, but it´s not scheduled workstation either where you know exactly when the next shipment arrive

- its a casino were you either get hit in the balls or if you got lucky - not.

Having to react to unexpected things is also a part of grand strategy. Not everything should be known to a ruler of a realm.

- sure, those 2 millions of peasant rebels that appear out of thin air and destroy your army just when you were preparing to fight against abbasids is super unexpected, especially if it was the only province with unrest. Dont bullshit me, please, here are difference between something truly unexpected and plain bullshit. Claiming that ruler somehow did not knowed that here are peasant uprising brewing in realm when at the same time he is perfectly knows that nobles conspire against him via faction menu is second.

 

[Orctavius]

How will shattered retreats play out great holy wars? For example, if a French army is defeated while on a crusade for Jerusalem, will it retreat all the way back to France?

 

[Dirt McStain]

I'd love to see some battle events similar to how we have siege events. However, both really need some more flavor, like negotiating an early surrender, having mercenaries (and some particularly disloyal commanded) switch sides mid-battle. The unpredictability of these is what would keep the battles interesting, and make mercenary hiring and commander hiring more critical.

 

[Parsidius]

How is damage calculated? If it's straight attack, it seems like two heavy cavalry fighting would overkill each other (since their attack is higher than their defense.)

 

[lolciokuba]

I'd love to see some battle events similar to how we have siege events. However, both really need some more flavor, like negotiating an early surrender, having mercenaries (and some particularly disloyal commanded) switch sides mid-battle. The unpredictability of these is what would keep the battles interesting, and make mercenary hiring and commander hiring more critical.

I like the idea but can you imagine the outrage on these forums if suddenly Mercs started switching sides?

It'll be like when factions got introduced or the byzantine restore empire CB was taken away... the good times

 

[Ilyasviel]

- sure, those 2 millions of peasant rebels that appear out of thin air and destroy your army just when you were preparing to fight against abbasids is super unexpected, especially if it was the only province with unrest. Dont bullshit me, please, here are difference between something truly unexpected and plain bullshit. Claiming that ruler somehow did not knowed that here are peasant uprising brewing in realm when at the same time he is perfectly knows that nobles conspire against him via faction menu is second.

Well, first of all, there's no rebellion anywhere near 2 millions. They're just a few thousands, and they're always made of weak light infantry, so they're easy to defeat. If you get crushed by a peasant army, you were going to get crushed by the Abbasids anyway.

Secondly, you can already tell where rebels will spawn by looking at the rebel mapmode. You just don't know exactly when they will, or if they ever will. I find this system pretty reasonable. It makes way more sense than knowing almost exactly when there will be a rebellion.