Dev Diary #8 - Naval Combat - 29.October 2009

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Just an idea: can you make minefields? Because there were mines in the WWII. They can come with the 5+ level coastal forts can give a penalty to the attacker due to the minefields. Or ships can have the new mission, set up a minefield. What do you think?
Also one of my oldest dream is why there aren't any ships in the rivers? Monitors, gunboats(in hungarian we have lots of alternative to identify ships, sorry if you misunderstand me). They can give firesupport, carry supplies maybe stop getting across the river or lake.
Sorry if these are too weird ideas but I think they are manageable.
 
I'm very much against including heavy subs as a separate class. The STO class (the I-400's) were the class designed to carry 3 aircraft. Only three were completed. A fourth was lanched but never completed. This represents a fringe element at best. Not only that, consider the aircraft it carried had only a 640 mile range. You're only asking for exploits by including these as a separate class.
I don't agree. Read this post to see why.

Also that range would probably allow the aircrafts to stay airborne for 10 hours or more, quite a lot of time for scouting and finding targets before they have to return. The floatplanes were in many cases almost identical to those launched by Battleships & Cruisers, and the M6A1 Serian on I-400 class had superior range to most other float-planes.

Germany also laid down the keels for 4 Type XI-B "cruiser" heavy submarines intended to carry float-planes & artillery, but they were cancelled at the outbreak of war.

I also can't believe you're serious about making nuclear propulsion as an engine upgrade. The entire ship would have to be rebuilt from the keel on up to accept a nuclear power plant. It's not just a matter of swapping out an engine.

Please rethink both of these proposals.
This is a valid concern, how many ships or subs were actually retrofitted with nuclear power plants?

Ok, i got a result from the 30DDs againt 1 BB

Result:
Tactical victory for DDs.
The BB flees and is able to escape after some smaller skrimishes.
Light damages to both sides. No shps sunk.
Sounds OK, I would expect a Few DDs to be sunk or heavily damaged though and that their superior speed at least makes it hard for the BB to flee.

Ofcourse it also depend on many other factors such as leaders, doctrines and xp.

Btw a key naval feature that I think is missing so far: what about detection in adjacent seazones? Some float & carrier planes had 2000km or more range and alot of historical naval detections were made at far greater distances then a few 100km.
Its also reasonable to give navalbases some basic detection from scout sea/floatplanes based there or patrols ships below the scale of the game. This should be based on navalbase level.
 
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I ... can't believe you're serious about making nuclear propulsion as an engine upgrade. The entire ship would have to be rebuilt from the keel on up to accept a nuclear power plant. It's not just a matter of swapping out an engine.

Yes, and that is also the problem with improved hull attachment...
That is why they make use of a new AOD mechanic:
Brigades can be defined as lockable - so they can only be attached at build time.
 
Its also reasonable to give navalbases some basic detection from scout sea/floatplanes based there or patrols ships below the scale of the game. This should be based on navalbase level.

I like this idea and, some time ago, I wanted to open a thread on the reason why Malta was determinant in WWII and useless in HOI
 
From the post, I understood, that
- nuclear engine is modelled as a "brigade"
- "brigades" can be easilly attached or disattached at the port.

Does that mean, that you can easily convert nuclear BB to a usula one, and vice versa? That looks strange at least...
 
I'm very much against including heavy subs as a separate class. The STO class (the I-400's) were the class designed to carry 3 aircraft. Only three were completed. A fourth was lanched but never completed. This represents a fringe element at best. Not only that, consider the aircraft it carried had only a 640 mile range. You're only asking for exploits by including these as a separate class.

I think It's a nice addition, Japan for example built no less then 33 submarines capable of launching float-plane spotters. And heavier versions of Submarines existed in most other navies too, like the French Surcouf or US Narwhal/V-Boats.

I was a little bit startled when I saw that you where including this kind of submarines. Many navies experimented with these kinds of submarines but none with overall operational sucess. Then the logic fails when ingame this subs are the best subs you can build. (if this i right ;))

Japan for example made 3 I-400s*, namly I-400 at Kure, and I-401 and I-402 at Sasebo. One of these was converted to a tanker and never had an airplane in its hangar. The two remaining u-boats were able to carry three Aichi M6A Seiran aircraft, each carrying an 800 kilogram (1,764 lb) bomb 650 miles (1000 km) at 295 miles per hour (474 km/h). The u-boats also carried enough fuel to go around the world one-and-a-half times.
But the main question is; how good a u-boat is this. No one knows because it never saw action. So it is guesswork. But common sense tells us that thes u-boats should have better detection than others. But it's also at an disadvantage in other aspects. It's woundrable when the airplanes are on their way in or out of the hangar. Other vessels can also know of its presence when they themselves see the airplane.

On the other hand IJN had altogether 47* submarines built with the capability to carry seaplanes. Thes u-boats were among others the B-1 class (aka I-15 class) which 20 were built. These series was rather successful, especially at the beginning of the war. I-26, in 1942, crippled aircraft carrier USS Saratoga. I-19, on 15 September 1942, fired six torpedoes at aircraft carrier USS Wasp, two of which hit the carrier and sank her, the remainder damaging battleship USS North Carolina. I-25 conducted the only aerial bombings ever on the continental United States in September 1942



The French navy built the Surcouf*. It was ordered to be built in December 1927, launched 18 October 1929, and commissioned in May 1934. It served as a convoy escort but I havent found any reports of it being engaged in combat. It carried one Besson MB.411 which was a two-seat spotter and observation floatplane, designed by Besson. Maximum range was 400km. But again, since it allegedly never saw action, its performance remain guesswork.



The Royal navy built 3 M-Class u-boats one* of wich was converted to carry one Parnall Peto seaplane. The U-boat was lost supposedly because of water entering the hangar shortly after surfacing. After the loss of M2 the Royal Navy abandoned submarine-launched aircraft. This was in 1932.



The US navy built a group of nine V-boats* between 1919 and 1934. Originally called USS V-1 through V-9 (SS-163 through SS-171), the nine submarines were renamed in 1931 as Barracuda, Bass, Bonita, Argonaut, Narwhal, Nautilus, Dolphin, Cachalot, and Cuttlefish, respectively. All served in World War II, six of them on war patrols in the central Pacific. Argonaut was lost to enemy action.

None of these subs had any seaplanes. The Navy had experimented with seaplanes on submarines with a prototype hangar installation on USS S-1 (SS-105) during the mid-1920s. However, the resulting increase in scouting capability was significantly offset by several additional dangers to the host submarine, and the initiative was dropped

And for the size of the u-boats they emerged as too large and unwieldy for fully successful operation: slow to dive, hard to maneuver, and easy to detect. Somewhat more serendipitously, their large size made them useful for carrying both troops and cargo on covert missions.

V-7:Early in the war, Dolphin herself made three patrols from Pearl Harbor without notable distinction, and her deteriorating material condition soon led to restricting her to training duties, first in Hawaii, and then in New London, Connecticut, for the duration of the war.

V-8 and V-9:Unfortunately, because small size severely limited their speed, endurance, and weapons load, neither boat was successful under the conditions of the Pacific war. Each did three scoreless war patrols in the central and western Pacific, and Cachalot did one in Alaskan waters, but by late 1942, it was clear both were out-classed and worn out, and they finished the war at New London as training ships. The two were decommissioned in October 1945 and broken up several years later.




The wikipeida history lesson is over. What is the point or main argument? Although these submarines existed there is only the japanese subs that can show any operational sucess. So it seems like size doesn't matter. The game tries to model the large Japanese submarines. They can be built around 39-40. It is completly wrong on two accounts. The large subs built by japan were finished in 44. The more succesfull ones the B-1 class were built around 40, but they were not large. Yes they were large in surface and sumerged displacement. But if you look closer at armament, speed, and range it doesn't strike my as an "super" submarine.

Lets se how the B-1* compare to germanys Type IX* U-boat which was designed by Germany in 1935 and 1936 as a large ocean-going submarine for sustained operations far from the home support facilities

B-1: Displacement: 2,584 tons surfaced 3,654 tons submerged
IX: Displacement: 1,032 t surfaced 1,152 t submerged

comment: over twice as big and three times as big submerged. But the electrical power of B-1 (2000hp) is only twice as big as IXs (1000hp)


B-1:Length: 356.5 ft (108.7 m)
Beam: 30.5 ft (9.3 m)
IX:Length: 76.6 m (251 ft 4 in) overall 58.7 m (192 ft 7 in) pressure hull
Beam: 6.5 m (21 ft 4 in) overall 4.4 m (14 ft 5 in) pressure hull

comment: nearly twice as big again.


B-1:Range: 14,000 nautical miles (26,000 km) at 16 knots (30 km/h)
(no info on range submerged)
IX:Range: 19,425 nmi (35,975 km) at 10 knots (19 km/h) surfaced, 144 nmi (267 km) at 4 kn (7.4 km/h) submerged.

Comment: althoug higher cruising speed, the B-1 has about the same range if you calculate with the speed difference.


B-1:Speed: 23.5 knots (44 km/h) surfaced 8 knots (15 km/h) submerged.
IX:Speed: 18.2 knots (33.7 km/h) surfaced 7.7 knots (14.3 km/h) submerged.

Comment: there is a ca 10 km/h in speed difference but submerged it is only 0.3 knots. So the B-1 can close on the targe faster but is more visible bacause of size. They have the same capability of evading submerged but the B-1 is at an disadvantage because of size.

B-1:Armament 6 × 533 mm forward torpedo tubes (17 torpedoes)
1 × 140 mm 50 calibre gun
Aircraft carried: 1 Yokosuka E14Y seaplane

IX: 6 × torpedo tubes (4 bow, 2 stern)
1 × Utof 105 mm/45 deck gun with 110 rounds
22 × 55 cm (22 in) torpedoes (24 in Type IXD)

Comment: B-1 has no stern torpedo tubes. Has smaller amount of torpedos and has also a much smaller deckgun. But interestlingy some of the submarines had their aircraft hangar removed, to replace it with a 14 cm gun. So those who carried aircraft had only a 50 cal deckgun. This makes the IX much more versatile in convoy raiding as the IX can finish of merchant ships with their deckgun not waisting a torpedo. With only 17 torpedos the B-1s arsenal is soon to get depleted. But the B-1 has an airplane. But as we have seen befor the airplanes advantages comes at a cost. For example; if the weather changes between take off and landing for the worse, getting the plane back to the hangar can be tricky. If the airplane is lost, well then you loose the higher detectability right away. You have to carry aviationfuel wich can be depleted long before the fuel for the subs engines is depleted. If they use the same fuel, well then the range of the sub decreases with every flight.


Summary:

By all means include the submarines. But be sure to tweak their stats to mirror how they actually performed. Also look over their stats i comparison to other submarines more closely. Size in regards to submarines always comes at a cost.

As far as airplanes and submarines, history has thought us that this was not a succesfull combination. Haveing them in the game is good for flavor but the subs should have both stenghts and weaknesses, not overall better stats than regular subs. This safeguards us against exploits. It maybe the case that you already thought of this and has already implemented this, then you can see this post as a little history lesson. ;)




ps
Havent got the time to spellcheck and with dyslexia it can turn out rather amusing at times. But I think I mostly made my case. All info is from wikipeida.
 
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B-1: Displacement: 2,584 tons surfaced 3,654 tons submerged
IX: Displacement: 1,032 t surfaced 1,152 t submerged
You don't think 3 times as large and with unique capabilities (like extreme range, artillery or launching seaplanes) warrants a separate class? What if that reasoning was applied to tanks? How many classes of tanks would HoI2 have? 2? Now it got the following tank-based vehicles:

# LArm
# MArm
# HArm
# SHArm
# TD
# SPArt
# SPRArt

That's 7 classes of tanks. Its also important to remember that HoI2 lacks submarine development between 1938-44. Thats a single tech jump covering 6 years, It could use a little more details.

Besides I would call the type IX somewhat of a semi heavy submarine, It was the heaviest standard sub Germany did build. So as a comparison or "average sub" its not that good.

By all means include the submarines. But be sure to tweak their stats to mirror how they actually performed. Also look over their stats i comparison to other submarines. Size in regards to submarines always comes at a cost.
Good then we agree. Largest =/= best, and I think the devs know this too :)
 
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I don't really object to the existence of such a class theoretically speaking, but its really an issue of how relevant the model was to the war effort. It is clear that different models of tanks, heavy tanks for example, had a serious impact on the war effort, and proved themselves to be useful.

A more appropriate comparison would be to the super-heavy "Maus" tank design, which I put in the category of "experimental" designs. Post war experience showed that such super-heavy tank designs were not useful for a number of reasons, ranging from difficulties in production to battlefield utility.

The Heavy Sub with aircraft concept likewise didn't survive the war, nor did it have any measurable impact. On those terms, does it make sense to allow a player the option of producing such designs in quantity?

Those would be my arguments, but, it's really a detail, and it can be modded out if people don't like it, and removed or changed in later evolutions of the game. At this point in time I am sure more urgent issues are at hand for the developers of this game.
 
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From the post, I understood, that
- nuclear engine is modelled as a "brigade"
- "brigades" can be easilly attached or disattached at the port.

Does that mean, that you can easily convert nuclear BB to a usula one, and vice versa? That looks strange at least...

AFAIK most naval brigades cannot be removed once they are installed. This particular brigade has to be included when building the ship, not attached afterwards and is certainly not removable (or so I think).
 
AFAIK most naval brigades cannot be removed once they are installed. This particular brigade has to be included when building the ship, not attached afterwards and is certainly not removable (or so I think).

I agree. I can see here two options:
1) As you mentioned a brigade should be included in the building
2) In onder to attach a brigades to an existing ship the ship should be locked in the port for the time required for building
 
If BIG would be = GOOD then the germans and the soviets would be tottaly superior in every way to the allies. Because what do those little Sherman tanks do against Tigers or Jospeh stalin tanks? The problem is the concept doesnt work out and it didnt work out.

A.)Big weapons are slow, cost ineffective, hard to conceal and easy to hit by planes, need much resources to mantain and achive their maximum effectivnes in very rare opportunites. Thats why the phanter tank was a better tank then the tiger tank.

B.)The sub described here would be included in the game to simulate a unit which had pretty much no inflance on the autcome of the war, because if it had any influance, those subs would show up on atleast some pages of history like the germans subs did, which had a big influance on the war. It would be more logical to include kamikazi suicide bombers for the japanese as those subs, which is a very unapropriate choice.

C.)If this unit is included in this project, just for the sake of its existance in the real world, then I simply demand that those units are also added, which are way more badass and would add much more flavour to the game, then those subs:
-Panzerkampfwagen VIII Maus (Super heavy tank- 1 existed)
-Kamikazis (That weapon acctualy done something durning the war)
-T-35 Heavy Tank (Soviet multi turret tank)
-A plenty of German not so usual planes
 
If BIG would be = GOOD then the germans and the soviets would be tottaly superior in every way to the allies. Because what do those little Sherman tanks do against Tigers or Jospeh stalin tanks? The problem is the concept doesnt work out and it didnt work out.

Psst...the Red Army would have steamrolled the Allied armies, the T-34 was tougher, hit harder, cheaper, and more reliable then the Sherman. Of course, Allied air superiority comes in.

Anyways: The 'locked' brigades look good...is there any chance of escort nuclear propulsion? It's always a pain having unlimited range BBs and BCs and having to escort them with limited-range CLs...

Also: Is it possible to alter BCs so that they no longer require escorts to fight properly? Historically they weren't supposed to have escorts, they were supposed to be individual fast raiders and fleet scouts that could 'outrun battleships and outfight cruisers'.
 
I'd very much rather see a 'Spotter aircraft' brigade for subs than that 'heavy sub' thing. Imo, they didn't represent an advantage to regular subs, but rather the opposite. They didn't make it past WWII, nor did they make a difference during the war, so it'd be essentially pointless to have them ingame, imho.
 
lol Delex did you play HoI2 or not? Maus is in, as well as T-35(at least in some mods for this one though). Kamikaze is more of a doctrine than a weapon in itself. As for geman unusual planes you have at least the rocket interceptor. So, nearly all those strange weapons are already included in the game.
 
Amallric-Those were examples. There is a gazillion of other ww2 weapons which could be included, just because they did exist at a point in history. And kamikazis were pretty much a weapon by itself.

great_chairman-T-34 was not a heavy tank and it was super effective.
 
...is there any chance of escort nuclear propulsion? It's always a pain having unlimited range BBs and BCs and having to escort them with limited-range CLs....

What I miss in the game from this standpoint is the fact that fleets had tankers. It is really a big hole in the game.
 
What I miss in the game from this standpoint is the fact that fleets had tankers. It is really a big hole in the game.

I think range has been capped for gameplay reasons. I just looked up in a book about US cruisers that Omaha-Class CL´s had a range of 10,000 nm at 15 knots (max. speed 34 kn.). The ingame range is no more than 2,000 nm. Unlimited range doesn´t seem to be too helpful.
 
I think range has been capped for gameplay reasons. I just looked up in a book about US cruisers that Omaha-Class CL´s had a range of 10,000 nm at 15 knots (max. speed 34 kn.). The ingame range is no more than 2,000 nm. Unlimited range doesn´t seem to be too helpful.

I'm not sure because AI has unlimited range
 
Range is a funny thing. I mean 10,000 NM, is a round trip of 5000 or so, as the crow flies, not accounting for any other activities that take you off a straight course to avoid detection or scout or whatever. Not only that but the actual size of the oceans in the HOI II map are not realistically proportional to the land masses.