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OHgamer

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Hmm Torbay part of Plymouth province again, oh well I can't complain, at least we havn't been shafted about 50 miles north like Liverpool :confused:

Don't confuse the placement of the name of the province with the actual city location, which is at the very southern end of the province of Liverpool on the map, on the coast, and is not indicated at all in the screenshot attached. All we have here is the province and names.

europe.jpg


Here is the original Clio Map setup for the region. As you can see, the province of Liverpool stretches from the Mersey estuary northward, with the city of Liverpool just at the southern end of the province (the borders between Lancashire and Cheshire running just south of the city). Due to the reduction of the map size from the original Clio size (clio is about 9x the size of what the map in V2 will be) to what is in game now, the city of Liverpool is going to be just over the line with Chester province, but the city itself was intended and I would say still is located in Liverpool province, and when the coordinates for the actual placement of icons for buildings etc are made, they should be located just over the border.

Liverpool province itself represents the coastal section of Lancashire, with Manchester representing the inland regions. the province names on the map, however, do NOT represent the locations of the towns or where the buildings most likely will be.
 

Sebastian Jarl

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Actually, thinking a bit over the case, I think they could be able to keep the world market and still give us a lot of the features we want.

In old Vicky, as far as I know, all goods were purchased of the world market. If you produced furniture, you would first sell it to the world market, and your pops would buy it from there. If we introduce a "domestic market", or the ability for pops to buy domestic goods before they get out into the world market, we would get a long way. That way you'd be able secure strategic resources like rubber for your own country. Of course, such a concept wouldn't fly well with the Laissez-Faire ideology, cheating profits from honourable capitalists and all that jazz. That's why the ideologies of parties would determine how large quotas your government can shotgun for the domestic market. Dominions, protectorates and satellites could be included in the domestic market.

Such a concept could also allow for the trade agreements we all have wet dreams about. With a trade agreement to certain goods, they would become available to your domestic market before hitting the world market. Think of Peru's guano!

Now simulating shipping costs is harder, but still feasible to some degree. If you limit the possibility both to export and import goods to a province by their infrastructure, e.g. ports and rail-roads, it would still mean that it's more profitable to have factories close by the resources. No longer would it necessarily be more profitable to have all your pops working in the factories, ignoring the fact that the lumber they produce furniture has to be shipped in.

And finally, prices could fluctuate depending on how many available ships there is versus the actual need for shipping. Again, some of these ships could be allocated to suit the needs for domestic shipping before they become available to the world.

Now, I'm not sure, but would these proposals be easier to implement than what has been suggested before? If they do, I'd certainly be satisfied, as it would be a much better simulation than Vickys world market, and would open up for many of the strategy we wish to see. :)

Edit:

I say I think it would be easier as I assume that with the tariff function of old Vicky, it already tracks which goods you are producing. Giving people access to buy them without competing with the rest of the world shouldn't be too hard then, should it?
 

OHgamer

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That is rather unfortunate. Victoria's gameplay is principly about economics. Creating a highly artificial system strongly deters historical immersion and gameplay cohesion. No one is suggesting stock exchanges in every city, but this era should be wholly predicated on the notion of trade routes, limited trading blocs, etc. How does political protectionism make sense in a game world based on a 21st century free market?

But the 19th C was not about trade routes and trade blocs, at least not after 1840. Almost all the British colonies in Africa and Asia had representatives of German, Japanese and French trade firms who shipped in goods from their home countries into the local British markets. It was only starting in the 1920s that the British Empire even began considering trying to use their colonies as a "trading bloc" and even then it would only be the Depression that would lead from consideration to implementation.

Similarly in the French and German empires, up to WWI trade was fairly well open to merchants from other nations. American traders had no problem buying goods from any of the African colonies pre-1914, and American goods could be found in most African colonial shops, along with European productions.

Yes tariffs were increasingly used starting in the 1880s, but these tariffs were usually limited to certain industries, and were not wholescale attempts to close markets to imports from overseas.

the period from say 1850 to 1914, which is the heart of the Victoria game time period, was one where a merchant in Hamburg, Paris, London, New York or Tokyo could arrange to set up trade with just about any other nation to import goods in. They might have to pay import tariffs on some goods, but the ethos of the time was not to completely shut the nation off from the outside world. Only really after 1914 does the idea of returning to a neo-mercantilist mindset of autarky and closed markets begin to come back in vogue, and its really only with the Depression that it comes into force fully, as each major trade nation follows the ill-guided US decision of the Smoot-Hawley Tariffs and close themselves off almost completely to trade with each other and try to build self-sustaining internal economies.
 

unmerged(77752)

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I'm fine with a world market, there's just two important things I would like to know from any of the developers...

1) Embargos Is it going to be possible or able to embargo countries? I'm sure there has to be someway for that to be programed into the world market.

For example say that I want to embargo Germany, and I'm making 3 of the world markets 7 Steamers Convoys, I wouldn't imagine that it would be too hard to program that Germany could only get 4 Steamers under that situation?

2) Market Manipulation Is it possible to manipluate the World Market, specifically the supply and demand of goods to artificially raise the price of goods.

Easiest example of this I'm China, and I only Supply 10 units of tea, while world Demand is 50. Would the world market be receptive to this and actually lead to a price increas of Tea??

If these two things are do-able, then I think the World Market system would work just fine!
 

bbasgen

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Ohgamer,

You make salient points as usual. Yet, in total I remain unconvinced. Capitalism was just begining to form in the 19th century and by no means represented the bulk of economic activity in any nation.

What does this world market represent in history? What historian has named such an institution? Keep in mind that factories and rgos are suppossed to be abstractions representing huge economic activity. ALL of this activity is then funneled into a fanciful world market.

Thus, in the game the world market becomes the nexus of all economic activity.
 

EGaffney

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But the 19th C was not about trade routes and trade blocs, at least not after 1840. Almost all the British colonies in Africa and Asia had representatives of German, Japanese and French trade firms who shipped in goods from their home countries into the local British markets. It was only starting in the 1920s that the British Empire even began considering trying to use their colonies as a "trading bloc" and even then it would only be the Depression that would lead from consideration to implementation.

Similarly in the French and German empires, up to WWI trade was fairly well open to merchants from other nations. American traders had no problem buying goods from any of the African colonies pre-1914, and American goods could be found in most African colonial shops, along with European productions.

Yes tariffs were increasingly used starting in the 1880s, but these tariffs were usually limited to certain industries, and were not wholescale attempts to close markets to imports from overseas.

the period from say 1850 to 1914, which is the heart of the Victoria game time period, was one where a merchant in Hamburg, Paris, London, New York or Tokyo could arrange to set up trade with just about any other nation to import goods in. They might have to pay import tariffs on some goods, but the ethos of the time was not to completely shut the nation off from the outside world. Only really after 1914 does the idea of returning to a neo-mercantilist mindset of autarky and closed markets begin to come back in vogue, and its really only with the Depression that it comes into force fully, as each major trade nation follows the ill-guided US decision of the Smoot-Hawley Tariffs and close themselves off almost completely to trade with each other and try to build self-sustaining internal economies.

I'm sure it doesn't need to be said, now that OHgamer has said it, but this is the consensus among economic historians. The Victoria time period was more laissez-faire than any other, including the 21st century so far. Free trade was the order of the day; of course, it was on terms of trade set out by the most powerful, but mercantilism was dying and government intervention was unheard of. It was raw capitalism. Cities and countries acted as entrepôts, so individual trade measures were powerless, because if Britain slapped a tariff or embargo on you, you just traded through a different port.

Ohgamer,

You make salient points as usual. Yet, in total I remain unconvinced. Capitalism was just begining to form in the 19th century and by no means represented the bulk of economic activity in any nation.

What does this world market represent in history? What historian has named such an institution? Keep in mind that factories and rgos are suppossed to be abstractions representing huge economic activity. ALL of this activity is then funneled into a fanciful world market.

Thus, in the game the world market becomes the nexus of all economic activity.

I'm interested to know how you think economic activity was organised in 1860 or so. My opinion is that capitalism would describe the situation very well in the Americas and Europe, at least.

I have always thought of the world market as being a simplification of the very general equilibrium process that people think would be a huge improvement, with prices being determined by global conditions. Like the economic concept of a "market", the world market isn't meant to be something that happens in a physical marketplace of any kind, but rather the consequences of behaviour on prices and quantities.
 

The Andy-Man

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Ohgamer,

You make salient points as usual. Yet, in total I remain unconvinced. Capitalism was just begining to form in the 19th century and by no means represented the bulk of economic activity in any nation.

What does this world market represent in history? What historian has named such an institution? Keep in mind that factories and rgos are suppossed to be abstractions representing huge economic activity. ALL of this activity is then funneled into a fanciful world market.

Thus, in the game the world market becomes the nexus of all economic activity.

Seriously, the 19th C was the golden age of Capitalism, not the birth. Also, define economic activity that is not capitalism, and then tell us where this form of economic activity was taking placei n 1850.


As for the world market, I agree, it is not a very system imo.
 

Tormodius

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How are you going to model with any semblance of historicity the Opium Wars, for example? Or more generally speaking, the series of wars and near-wars that were fought (or almost fought) in China throughout the Vicky time-frame that centered on market access to the world's most populous nation?

Yeah that would be interesting to hear!
I don't know if you tried playing China with the VIP mod. Now that was awesome. You got totally screwed with, but there were ways out of it.

The british EIC forced some indemnites and kept some treaty ports "as hostage", which were all covered by static events in VIP. It was very nicely done, however it used the oldschool event system which will now be replaced. It was not possible with much more than this because of the limitations in Vicky1.

Effects could vary: increase/decrease con or mil, make pops become other pops, force a war, payments or some diplomatic deal, but very little in the economic sense. I hope there will be less limitations in the next one :rolleyes: I might be too enthusiastic but I hope the new Vicky will be moddable also economically. But I do not know how moddable the economic stuff in it self can be. This might be hard to make more moddable?
 

unmerged(181726)

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You make salient points as usual. Yet, in total I remain unconvinced. Capitalism was just begining to form in the 19th century and by no means represented the bulk of economic activity in any nation.

What does this world market represent in history? What historian has named such an institution? Keep in mind that factories and rgos are suppossed to be abstractions representing huge economic activity. ALL of this activity is then funneled into a fanciful world market.

This is just fuzzy thinking. "Capitalism" was already well established when Victoria starts (between 65 and 125 years old depending on your definition of the term), and even taking a narrow definition of it (ie. mechanized factory production for profit as in the classical marxist definition) it already accounted for the lions share of exports in England, Belgium and Switzerland, and was a significant and growing component in other advanced economies. But, in any case, its probably best to drop the loaded terms: whether the world market is realistic depends not on capitalism but rather on the degree to which global markets where integrated by trade.

By the early 1700s, global markets already existed, albeit imperfectly, for a host of high value items, eg. sugar, cotton textiles (mostly from India until the 1790s), tea, tobacco, silk, etc. The British economy, and to a lesser degree the Dutch and French economies, relied on the reexport trades in these products. Even this far back however, there where important long-range markets in bulk commodities, like grain and iron. On the eve of the American revolution, nearly 10% of American exports consisted of pig-iron and associated products (with another significant chunk being foodstuffs, mostly grain, exported to the Caribbean); Sweden and Russia exported massive amounts of iron to England and the Netherlands. And grain markets where very well developed: the low countries had depended on Baltic grain since the XV century, and late in the XVIII England became a substantial importer. And, of course, raw cotton was big export for the US and Brazil towards the end of this time-frame.

As the Victorian period began these trends only increased... by the mid XIX century Imports+Exports amounted to a large fraction of GDP in America and Western Europe, and goods could be exported and imported freely. By the 1840s, the chief activity of England was in exporting intermediate products and capital goods for continental factories and reimporting finished goods (e.g. cotton yarn replaced cotton cloth as the chief export, followed by machinery). By the mid 1870s, there where global markets for all commodities: i.e. the markets where sufficiently unified that after adjusting for transportation costs, the price of iron was the same everywhere. Moreover, other than tariffs there where few barriers to trade in the XIX century (and even these where modest compared to the 1930s or the XVIII century). To me this sounds like an integrated world market.

Was this a perfect market? No, freight costs and tariffs represented important barriers. But given the extraordinary degree of international trade in the period it seems asinine to insist that there was no world market. And besides, the game could easily incorporate a "freight cost" modifier on the price of exports/imports (driven by tech and infrastructure), and a stronger model for tariffs (like the ability to set different rates for different broad classes of goods e.g "foodstuffs", "consumption goods", "commodities" etc).

You don't need 10 billion local markets for this.

Most of this is from the work of Findlay and O'Rourke btw. Highly recommended.
 

Tormodius

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And besides, the game could easily incorporate a "freight cost" modifier on the price of exports/imports (driven by tech and infrastructure), and a stronger model for tariffs (like the ability to set different rates for different broad classes of goods e.g "foodstuffs", "consumption goods", "commodities" etc).

Yikes, that was a really great idea! I hope they make it into the game.
You could then make a slightly realistic victorian tea-opium empire using those mechanics. :D
 

Capt. Kiwi

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Observation: Vicky 2 dev diary replies take much longer to read through than those for HTTT. I shall leave any implications of that statement to be reflected upon by you.

A brief dev diary with few details, but it does all that it needs to - introduces a few key topics, sets them up for later elaboration, and gets a few debates going. Personally I'll wait and see on this one, because until we see more we can't really make final conclusions.
 
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It's been said already, but I really don't know how they're going to represent the economic basis behind the European and American interventions in China and Latin America, or really for colonialism in general, as it stands. At least in VIP, you had events to make the episodes happen at all, even if the reasons for them had to be heavily abstracted. But of course the old determinist ways have since been consigned to Outer Darkness, so...
 

King

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For me today's dev. diary destroys a lot of hope I had for Victoria 2. If I got it right all the basic mechanisms even those most critisized by the community will stay more or less the same. However, keeping the old model means that things you might want to add as employment cannot be easily done in a plausible way either. The economic side of the game will always appear arbitrary without having a general equilibrium economic model as a backbone. I would really appreciate if King and Johan could explain why they don't even seem to consider this option. Maybe King could also describe how close the current enginge comes to a general equilibrium model and how these indeed qustionable world-market even works and what it does for the game. Basically, my question is why do we need a world-market if we don't have a general equilibrium model anyway. In a general equilibrium setup, which should be somewhat resource intensive (computer-power), a world-market could be a necessary simplification to keep things doable. Nevertheless, one could easily think of a general equilibrium economy with regional markets, maybe even one for each country. It couldn't even make many things easier in term of algorithm and necessary computations.

Another obvious thing that was critizised before is the RGO system. Personally, I think it was really childish how this worked in Vicy 1. In fact industrialization meant that people moved away from the countryside to work in factories but this didn't mean that they shut down farms and mines. Instead technological advantages in these areas freed up manpower for factory work. Having a general food supply score for every province would be a much better and also practical solution. Besides you should have an agricultural productivity number, which depends on your tech level. The province production could be determined like: Productivity x supply score (think of it as soil quality) x allocated pops. The latter factor should show decreasing rates of return that should depend on the productivity level. In the beginning the scarce ressource will be labour, hence production should rise almost linearly with allocated pops. Under industrialized circumstances the scarce resource will be land. Allocating additional pops wouldn't yield much extra then. This would give you a strong incentive to move them into factory jobs.

How we are going to improve the economic system is very much the subject for futre developer diaries, starting next week.
 

King

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Regarding your crisis, I assume that the POPs used too much fish? Are POPs and RGOs using the same amount of fish? I would suggest that RGOs and especially farmers use a very low amount, because they sustain them self and do not need the world market. While food like fish needs to be consumed by aristocrats and cleric from the world market.

There was roughly 3 times the demand for fish as produced in our first crack of the world in 1836.
 

King

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Without getting bogged down in details (or providing useful alternatives), I have to say that I am also disappointed with the retention of the WM from Vicky 1.

How are you going to model with any semblance of historicity the Opium Wars, for example? Or more generally speaking, the series of wars and near-wars that were fought (or almost fought) in China throughout the Vicky time-frame that centered on market access to the world's most populous nation?

While the WM may provide a rough approximation of the world economy viewed from a "macro" perspective, the "micro" of market access to particular nations is a factor which was a very significant factor in global power politics in the 19th century.

I hope future DD's will set my fears aside...

Well we do have some ideas here about why you may just want to do that.
 

King

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Observation: Vicky 2 dev diary replies take much longer to read through than those for HTTT. I shall leave any implications of that statement to be reflected upon by you.

A brief dev diary with few details, but it does all that it needs to - introduces a few key topics, sets them up for later elaboration, and gets a few debates going. Personally I'll wait and see on this one, because until we see more we can't really make final conclusions.

You've made Doomdark sad, it's Christams and all. :(
 

unmerged(44030)

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Little offtopic maybe...

Is the new improved user interface going to be small? I mean for example in EU3 the province menu covered a huge part of the screen and when there were the menu on the top and map -buttons on right... There was not much map visible. Of course, I could just increase resolution but they were still covering a lot of the screen.

In Vicky1, even if it's user interface wasn't as good as it could have been, it was relatively small. Everything opened in the same menu on the left (IIRC).
 

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And besides, the game could easily incorporate a "freight cost" modifier on the price of exports/imports (driven by tech and infrastructure), and a stronger model for tariffs (like the ability to set different rates for different broad classes of goods e.g "foodstuffs", "consumption goods", "commodities" etc).
Yikes, that was a really great idea! I hope they make it into the game.
You could then make a slightly realistic victorian tea-opium empire using those mechanics. :D

Actually, this is a pretty cool idea. But it should be possible for the player and AI (although the AI could use templates, I suppose, to make them perform better) to define their own groups of goods - not be forced to raise tariffs on all foodstuffs, etc. After all, categorisation and classification of consumer good and products is not an exact science, and could very well be used by a ruthless politician :D