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Dev Diary #20 - Religion and Faith

Come one, come all! Zealots and cynics, fundamentalists and heretics! It is time for us to finally talk about religion in Crusader Kings III, and all that it entails.

While parts of the religion system in CK3 may seem familiar to fans of the previous games, the system itself has been completely rebuilt from the ground up. As a result, there is little point in talking about changes from CK2; instead, I will start diving into how religion works in CK3 and what that means to you as a player.

The Religious Hierarchy
The most logical place to start talking about religion in CK3 is with… Religions! As a game concept, a Religion is defined by four main things:
  • What Traits are considered Sins and Virtues (3 each by default)
  • What Religion Family it belongs to (Abrahamic, Oriental, or Pagan)
  • What the standard religious Doctrines are for its Faiths
  • What Tenets are available to its Faiths
Individual characters and counties will never believe in a whole Religion — they believe in a Faith instead, with each Religion having several Faiths under it. For example, Catholicism and Orthodoxy are Faiths under Christianity, while Theravada and Mahayana are Faiths under Buddhism.

DD_WM_ChristianFaiths.png

[Screenshot showing a selection of either Christian Faiths, including distinct Coptic and Apostolic Faiths]

Similar to the way that Faiths belong to a Religion, Religions belong to a Religion Family. Religion Families are little more than groups of Religions, but this does serve an important purpose, as it plays a significant part in how Faith Hostility is calculated (more on that in a later Dev Diary).

Anatomy of a Faith
So if a character believes in a Faith, what does that mean for them? Well, each Faith is based on its parent Religion and inherits those attributes, but will be differentiated from other Faiths by its Tenets, Doctrines, and Holy Sites.

Tenets
Tenets are mechanical representations of the most important rites, rituals, and traditions of a Faith. Every Faith has exactly 3, picked from a total of around 50 different Tenets in the whole game. Tenets are the things which make a Faith special and unique, the things that set it apart from the other Faiths even within the same Religion (and especially outside of it).

DD_WM_Catholicism.png

[Screenshot of the Catholic Faith’s 3 Tenets - Armed Pilgrimages, Communion, and Monasticism]

Taking Catholicism as an example, we see one of their Tenets is that of Communion. This Tenet is what allows the Catholic Pope to excommunicate rulers, as well as allowing rulers to buy Indulgences from the Pope.

DD_WM_CommunionTenet.png

[Screenshot of the Communion Tenet, promoting values of honesty and community among adherents]

You may notice here that Communion also modifies what traits are considered Sins and Virtues by the Faith. While every Faith inherits 3 Sins and Virtues from its parent Religion, Tenets can add, modify, or remove these.

While some Tenets are unique to a single Faith, others are shared among multiple Faiths. For example, both Catholicism and Orthodoxy have the Communion Tenet. However, it is important to note that no two Faiths have the exact same combination of Tenets — as a result, every Faith will play at least a little differently, and some drastically so!

DD_WM_SacredLies.png

[Screenshot of the Sacred Lies Tenet, promoting scheming and treachery among adherents]

Doctrines
While less impactful than Tenets, Doctrines are still a crucial part of each Faith. A Faith’s Doctrines determine both its clerical structure as well as what its adherents can and cannot legally do.

DD_WM_Doctrines.png

[Screenshot of the Catholic Doctrines]

Every Faith has at least 18 Doctrines, with a few extras depending on the circumstances. While every Religion has a default stance for each Doctrine, these should be considered guidelines more than actual rules; individual Faiths can and do break away from standard dogma when appropriate. The different Doctrines are broken up into 4 categories:

  • Main Doctrines
  • Marriage Doctrines
  • Crime Doctrines
  • Clergy Doctrines

Main Doctrines cover how a Faith is organized on a fundamental level. These include things such as the traditional gender roles of a Faith, if the Faith has a Religious Head or not, how accepting (or unaccepting!) the Faith is of other Faiths and Religions, and if its priests must be part of a dedicated theocracy or if lay clergy are permitted.

Marriage Doctrines cover who is allowed to get married and how: if rulers can have multiple spouses, if concubines are permitted, if and when divorce is permitted, if extramarital relations can result in legitimate heirs, and who can even get married in the first place.

The Crime Doctrines cover what acts, if any, are considered immoral or even outright criminal. Characters who are publicly known to have violated these principles are Shunned, suffering an opinion penalty with all characters of that Faith, and may even be considered an outright Criminal who can be lawfully imprisoned and punished for their violations against divine law.

Finally the Clergy Doctrines determine how priests must behave and what their primary role in society is. The Clergy Doctrines also determine what power, if any, secular rulers have over the clergy within their realm.

Holy Sites
Finally, every Faith has some number of Holy Sites that this Faith considers to be more sacred than the rest. Controlling these Holy Sites will give a bonus to all characters of that Faith; this can create a significant source of conflict in the game, as many different Faiths can share specific Holy Sites, and every one of them wants to be the one in control!

DD_WM_HolySites.png

[Screenshot showing the five Orthodox Holy Sites and their corresponding bonuses]

Moddability
I’m going to go on a quick tangent here and talk about modding Faiths and Religions in Crusader Kings III. Primarily, I want to mention that everything I have talked about so far is completely modular! This means Religion Groups, Religions, Faiths, Doctrines, Tenets, and Holy Sites can all be swapped in and out, modified, changed, or new ones added with even just a basic knowledge of scripting.

DD_WM_Script.png

[Screenshot of a script snippet showcasing the Coptic Faith’s parameters]

This is one of the primary reasons we settled on the Faith, Tenet, and Doctrine system for CK3. Even though religion has a massive impact and touches dozens of game systems, it is easy for even new modders to dip their toes into the pool and start adding or changing things as they see fit. For experienced modders, this setup improves productivity and reduces the risk of introducing bugs. This has also had the side-effect of improving our productivity here at the office, which brings me to...

This is my Faith. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
At current count, we have 99 different Faiths in Crusader Kings III, all of which are fully playable. That more than doubles the number of playable religions we had in CK2 after Jade Dragon released.

DD_WM_EgyptNubia.png

[Screenshot of Egypt and Nubia, showing the diverse number of Faiths in the region]

Remember what I said earlier about how no two Faiths have the same combination of Tenets, and how every Faith would play at least slightly differently?

Yeah.

Your options are quite extensive:
  • You can play as the good ol’ Catholics, or one of their heresies like the Cathars.
  • You can play a different branch of Christianity, such as the Coptic Church or the Armenian Apostolic Church.
  • You can play as a more unusual branch of Christianity like the Adamites.
  • You can play not just as Sunni or Shia, but as individual religious movements or schools within them such as the Ash’ari or Maturidi, and the Isma’ili or Qarmatian.
  • You can play as various Jewish movements, such as the Karaites or Rabbanists.
  • You can play as a Dualist sect, such as Sabianism or Manicheanism.
  • You can play as individual branches of Hinduism, such as Vaishnavism and Shaktism, or make the choice between Therevada, Mahayana, and Vajrayana Buddhism.
  • You can play as one of three different schools of Confucianism, shaped by differing philosophies and focuses.
  • You can play as a distinct African pagan Faith such as Bori Animism or the Senegambian Roog Sene.
  • You can play as either Tengri or Magyar steppe pagans each with their own special traditions.
  • You can play as one of the Indian or Tibetan pagans as well, extending beyond Bon and into other regional and cultural Faiths.
  • Finally, don't forget the old favorite pagan Faiths like Norse (now called Asatru)!
While many of these faiths will have some similarities and common elements (especially within the same Religion), none of them are identical to each other. They all differentiate themselves mechanically in at least one way, and often in many ways. But… let’s say you’ve looked at every single one of these Faiths, and none of them are quite right. What, then, is a soul-searching medieval ruler to do?

Well, join us next week for the Dev Diary on Custom Faith Creation and Pagan Reformation!
 
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To represent the Maronites and possibly other Eastern Catholics .. or perhaps western Orthodox for that matter, I would go for two separate things in Christianity:
  1. Rites. These are to do with the traditions of your church, and could be represented by having distinct marriage rules, distinct clergy rules and organization
  2. Communions to represent common doctrine/tenets (like Christological doctrines) .
Instead of making it a Christian/Catholic-only mechanic, the CKIII team could solve a lot of the apparent weirdness in the religious setup by making Rites a fourth religion tier below Faiths and making things like Insular Christianity, the Islamic Schools, and the various cults of the Hindu gods “Rites” under their parent faith instead full-on faiths in-and-of themselves.
 
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I believe they're representing that with the interfaith relations system. We've already seen Hostile and Evil; presumably it can go all the way up to Full Communion to represent Islamic schools and whatnot.
 
since they already said Yazidi is in and no longer a "Muslim heresy" and rather its own separate thing, I imagine it will be under Pagan, since it being "oriental" seems a bit weird. Though Pagan has some connotations that aren't great considering modern religious politics, to be honest
Would it not be still considered Abrahamic
 
Armenian Apostolic Church is part of Oriental Orthodoxy- same as Coptic Church. Why is there a difference between those Faiths in game?

Also, are tenets or doctrine customizable via events? Can mods basically introduce events where doctrines or tenets change?

What about Unions between Christianity? For example Council of Lyons and Union between Orthodox and Catholic Churches? Will they be anyhow represented in the game? And what about Chalcedonian and Great Schism ? :O

This looks great.. I am so looking forward to this! GJ

Exactly. As said before, if the Copts from the Armenians are getting separated, then what about the Syriacs? Likewise, shouldn't Eastern Orthodoxy deserve a similar treatment since the Orthodox Patriarchs were very much autonomous from each other? The setup from CK2 was fine if a little flawed.
 
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So, we can see how religions will split off from each other, but I wonder how the game would handle "faiths" merging together? For instance, to take a (much) more recent example, a current mainstream Wesleyan "faith" (United Methodists) was born from the Evangelical United Brethren, itself a product of a merger, and the Methodists merging.
 
So, we can see how religions will split off from each other, but I wonder how the game would handle "faiths" merging together? For instance, to take a (much) more recent example, a current mainstream Wesleyan "faith" (United Methodists) was born from the Evangelical United Brethren, itself a product of a merger, and the Methodists merging.

Or in 1994 when the schism of the first council of Ephesus was healed by the Common Christo ogical Declaration Between the Catholic Church and the Assyria Church of the East.

The last game had a "heal the great schism" option that was completely ahistorical, it would be interesting if they added a mechanic to heal other schisms.
 
Or in 1994 when the schism of the first council of Ephesus was healed by the Common Christo ogical Declaration Between the Catholic Church and the Assyria Church of the East.

The last game had a "heal the great schism" option that was completely ahistorical, it would be interesting if they added a mechanic to heal other schisms.
That's not really a union, the two churches simply agreed on a doctrinal issue.

And a mending of the Great Schism isn't really ahistorical; an agreement to mend it was reached in 1439 at the Council of Florence. The Byzantine emperor was desperate for help from the West against the Ottomans, so the Orthodox embassy accepted Catholic doctrine and the supremacy of the Papacy. The public in Constantinople disliked that agreement though and after the Ottomans conquered Constantinople they installed anti-western Patriarchs so as to isolate Orthodox Christians from the West and make them easier to control. That's why this mending of the schism lasted less than two decades.
 
It would be nice if there was a way to heal the Great Schism from both sides.

Having to do it by basically conquering and converting from the Catholic side isn't really the way I want to go with trying to do it.

But to solve it "diplomatically" by some sort of cross-church council could be difficult to manage, especially with setting sensible triggers.

If there's a way to align the doctrines and traits of the religions without wandering into forming a new faith it'd be a starting point - align the two, and if they collectively control all the Patriarchal seats, and the Pope and Patriarchs have good relations, then a council could be called to discuss the schism, with many, many events being possible to let different characters have an influence on the result.
 
That's not really a union, the two churches simply agreed on a doctrinal issue.

And a mending of the Great Schism isn't really ahistorical; an agreement to mend it was reached in 1439 at the Council of Florence. The Byzantine emperor was desperate for help from the West against the Ottomans, so the Orthodox embassy accepted Catholic doctrine and the supremacy of the Papacy. The public in Constantinople disliked that agreement though and after the Ottomans conquered Constantinople they installed anti-western Patriarchs so as to isolate Orthodox Christians from the West and make them easier to control. That's why this mending of the schism lasted less than two decades.

Sorry, I was unclear. What I mean is this:

None of the major church schisms have ever been completely reversed in the way the "Mend the Great Schism" event from LoR represents, with an irreversible, sudden, worldwide, total event. That's what I meant by it being ahistorical. I don't mean to imply it's baseless.

The 1994 declaration also doesn't represent a total event like the LoR decision - the churches are still separate organizations, though members can literally take communion at either church. But it does represent a different schism being addressed and healed in a way that I think invites us to ask, "what if".

These original theological issues that the CKII Era churches schismed over were largely fine points of Greek grammar and semantics. In one case, both sides have officially declared that the original issue is resolved.

If we're open to having decisions to do LoR style total schism reversal, why not open it to all of the schisms?

What if the Oriental churches convinced the Chalcedonians that the "Miaphysite" formulation is perfectly good?

I just think it would be interesting if they expanded that event into a mechanic usable by all (or most) faiths of the same religion.
 
None of the major church schisms have ever been completely reversed in the way the "Mend the Great Schism" event from LoR represents, with an irreversible, sudden, worldwide, total event. That's what I meant by it being ahistorical. I don't mean to imply it's baseless.

Yeah, a complete merger of churches has not occurred. However Eastern-rite Catholic Churches, which are former Orthodox, Miaphysite and Nestorian and have accepted the authority of the pope while being allowed to practice their original rites, do exist.

I think that the way the event was presented in CK2 did make sense. If the Byzantine emperor had succeeded in reconquering Italy and establishing himself as a major power in Western Europe, then the pope would have been extremely motivated to accommodate his desires and if not he'd have gotten replaced by someone who did. The reason the pope had crowned Charlemagne as emperor was the weakening of Byzantine power in Italy after all, so popes do pay attention to geopolitics. Of course not every Catholic would have been willing go along with that and you'd end up with groups of Catholics who rejected this merger, similarly to how Old Believers in Russia or the Old Calendarists in Greece separated themselves from their churches over changes in religious practice, but CK2 allowed Catholics to continue to exist as an Orthodox heresy to represent that.

If we're open to having decisions to do LoR style total schism reversal, why not open it to all of the schisms?

Fair enough, I'm not opposed to something like that. My guess is that it didn't happen because it would be too much work to have scripted events for every possible merger. There's always the old-fashioned way of doing that of course; just conquer the provinces with a certain type of Christianity and then convert them all. :)
 
....

Hard lock, but could be modded in script to support the later.

....

As noted in response to another Dev Diary, if the goal is to role play, then it feels more fitting that the player have the right to break the rules, but at the consequence of severe penalties in opinion from others who are more faithful and devout.
 
As noted in response to another Dev Diary, if the goal is to role play, then it feels more fitting that the player have the right to break the rules, but at the consequence of severe penalties in opinion from others who are more faithful and devout.

You're in the Middle Ages. For all practical purposes, if your religion won't recognize your marriage, you can't get married. You can always take them as a lover, instead.
 
You're in the Middle Ages. For all practical purposes, if your religion won't recognize your marriage, you can't get married. You can always take them as a lover, instead.
That's still basically true today, albeit replacing "religion" with "government".
 
Regarding the screenshot: "Screenshot of Egypt and Nubia, showing the diverse number of Faiths in the region", I noticed the Waaqi faith is present close to the coast of what is modern day Djibouti and Eritrea. Is the screenshot reflecting the start date of the game or any other point in time? I am asking because the Waaqi faith was practiced by the Oromo as well before they later converted to Christianity and Islam, and although the whereabouts of their "homeland" has been debated over the years (centuries), much point to what you presented in dev diary #26 as Bali, Sidamo, Ganale, so a suggestion would be that the Waaqi faith be represented there in some form as well. But it really depends on the time discussed and where you place the oromo, if you do include them as a culture in the game. Looking forward to the game!
 
I hope that Estonians/Finns will not have the same faith as some Finno-Ugrians in Siberia. :D
The faith used at least in Estonia should be some combination of Asatru and Suomenusko.
 
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Regarding the screenshot: "Screenshot of Egypt and Nubia, showing the diverse number of Faiths in the region", I noticed the Waaqi faith is present close to the coast of what is modern day Djibouti and Eritrea. Is the screenshot reflecting the start date of the game or any other point in time? I am asking because the Waaqi faith was practiced by the Oromo as well before they later converted to Christianity and Islam, and although the whereabouts of their "homeland" has been debated over the years (centuries), much point to what you presented in dev diary #26 as Bali, Sidamo, Ganale, so a suggestion would be that the Waaqi faith be represented there in some form as well. But it really depends on the time discussed and where you place the oromo, if you do include them as a culture in the game. Looking forward to the game!

From IGN's Crusader Kings 3 - Map Overview video. 1 min 35 secs into the video. 867 Start date.
 

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Instead of making it a Christian/Catholic-only mechanic, the CKIII team could solve a lot of the apparent weirdness in the religious setup by making Rites a fourth religion tier below Faiths and making things like Insular Christianity, the Islamic Schools, and the various cults of the Hindu gods “Rites” under their parent faith instead full-on faiths in-and-of themselves.
Yay. I guess I am not alone in thinking this way.
 
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there is problem with seljuk faith. i saw a video in youtube, malik shah -heir of the saljuk sultan alp arslan-, as his faith ashari. but that is wrong. a lot of chronicles says he and nearly all of saljuk family was hanafi. hanafi was the school of maturidi faith. but ashari faith was followed by shaafi school practicers. actually in that period nearly all of sunni turkic tribes was maturidi. can you fix that please?
 
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I have probably missed that bit of information, but is there a way to change the doctrines - or even tenets - of a reformed religion without making a new religion?
 
I have probably missed that bit of information, but is there a way to change the doctrines - or even tenets - of a reformed religion without making a new religion?
You seem to need to make a new faith at present.
 
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