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DreadLindwyrm

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That is what I thought. It's a bit of a missed opportunity that there is no way of reforming a faith "from withing", e.g. by lobbying the pope/spiritual head of religion or holding Councils.
Hopefully we'll get the councils later.

Along with shared religious heads.
 

Frigabus

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Pagan Hungarians in the Kingdom of Hungary in 1066. In 1066 the Christianisation of Hungary had not been finished yet. In 1046 there was a great pagan rebellion (the so-called Vata pagan uprising) which was a real threat to the new Christian kingdom established only about 46 years earlier. At least 3 bishops were killed including Saint Gerard of Csanad. In 1061 there was a smaller and less violent uprising. That indicates that in 1066 a significant part of the Hungarians was still Pagan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vata_pagan_uprising

Suggestion: a few (1-3) counties (Bács, Csanád?) in the southern part of Hungary, east of the Danube could be Pagan.
 

Frigabus

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Hungarian Pagan holy places. I have 4 in my mind based upon the legends of the Hungarians.

 

Samitte

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Hungarian Pagan holy places. I have 4 in my mind based upon the legends of the Hungarians.

Don't the myth-making elements of the chronicles for facts, especially not for the period preceeding it. The GH was a concious myth-making excercise, and to assume it speaks for the Magyar during the 9th-11th century is a mistake. Especially the associations with the Huns should be avoided.

The conquest can be corroborated through other sources, but things like the blood oath, the Hun - Hungarian links, Hunor and Magor, and the Biblical elements, are all later fabrications and should not be attached to the Magyars.
 

Frigabus

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Don't the myth-making elements of the chronicles for facts, especially not for the period preceeding it. The GH was a concious myth-making excercise, and to assume it speaks for the Magyar during the 9th-11th century is a mistake. Especially the associations with the Huns should be avoided.

The conquest can be corroborated through other sources, but things like the blood oath, the Hun - Hungarian links, Hunor and Magor, and the Biblical elements, are all later fabrications and should not be attached to the Magyars.
What you say is true, there are more or less later fabrications (but probably based on some kind of oral tradition). The only problem is that due to the diligent Christianisation we know hardly anything of the ancient Hungarian faith. If you don't want to use these kinds of fabrications to determine the holy places of the Pagan Hungarians in CK3 than you could only use any random province not too far...
 
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Samitte

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What you say is true, there are more or less later fabrications (but probably based on some kind of oral tradition). The only problem is that due to the diligent Christianisation we know hardly anything of the ancient Hungarian faith. If you don't want to use these kinds of fabrications to determine the holy places of the Pagan Hungarians in CK3 than you could only use any random province not too far...
The game is already stretching history by having the Magyar as one grouping, called the Magyars. To quote Imre Boba:

Without attempting to solve the problems of the origin of the Hungarians, it must be emphatically stated that the application of the names ‘Magyar’, ‘Hungarian’ or ‘Ungar’ to any tribal formation participating in the events of the ninth century is an anachronism of is based on an unsubstantiated assumption that the Hungarians (Magyars) of today can be identified with a single group active in the steppe zone in the ninth century.
The forging of the Magyars/Hungarians as a people happened on the anvil of their monotheization and sedenterization. To make their holy sites based on Christian Hungarian myth-making makes less sense then picking some random places nearby. Though in my opinion their path should be to adopt a monotheistic belief anyway, and if the player wants to stay Pagan as the alt-history option that should require significant efforts.
 
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Frigabus

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The game is already stretching history by having the Magyar as one grouping, called the Magyars. To quote Imre Boba:



The forging of the Magyars/Hungarians as a people happened on the anvil of their monotheization and sedenterization. To make their holy sites based on Christian Hungarian myth-making makes less sense then picking some random places nearby. Though in my opinion their path should be to adopt a monotheistic belief anyway, and if the player wants to stay Pagan as the alt-history option that should require significant efforts.
If you say that 'the Hungarians (Magyars) of today cannot be identified with a single group active in the steppe zone in the ninth century' than the same can be said of the Pechenegs, Cumans etc. so all of the steppe dwellers with their swiftly changing ethnic composition.
If you say that 'to make their holy sites based on Christian Hungarian myth-making makes less sense then picking some random places nearby' than the same can be said of Santiago de Compostella where the remnants of Saint James the Greater were found just before 867. Of course, there's a chance that the bones were Saint James' bones but most likely it was a successful Christian myth-making.
I agree that the Hungarians' path was to adopt Christianity (or vanish otherwise). But CK3 is a game of historical possibilities and for a zealous Pagan Hungarian, fighting for Meotis or Etelköz is much more rousing than to wage a war for, say, Znoimo.
 

Samitte

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If you say that 'to make their holy sites based on Christian Hungarian myth-making makes less sense then picking some random places nearby' than the same can be said of Santiago de Compostella where the remnants of Saint James the Greater were found just before 867. Of course, there's a chance that the bones were Saint James' bones but most likely it was a successful Christian myth-making.
The cult of saints is a whole different beast and not comparable to whats happening in the Hungarian chronicles. These tell us more about the time they are written in, then the time they write about.


I agree that the Hungarians' path was to adopt Christianity (or vanish otherwise). But CK3 is a game of historical possibilities and for a zealous Pagan Hungarian, fighting for Meotis or Etelköz is much more rousing than to wage a war for, say, Znoimo.
But then you are fighting for essentially things informed by Christian myth-making done centuries in the future, which in turn would then never exist since the basis of those ideas relies on the adoption of monotheism...
 
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ArVass

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Don't the myth-making elements of the chronicles for facts, especially not for the period preceeding it. The GH was a concious myth-making excercise, and to assume it speaks for the Magyar during the 9th-11th century is a mistake. Especially the associations with the Huns should be avoided.

The conquest can be corroborated through other sources, but things like the blood oath, the Hun - Hungarian links, Hunor and Magor, and the Biblical elements, are all later fabrications and should not be attached to the Magyars.
The places Frigabus mentions still make infinitely more sense than picking random places or the same holy sites that Tengri has. The holy sites have their cons that 1. they are evenly distributed, but 2. not too far from eachother, and that 3. you could attach some meaning to them if you wanted. Even if everything described in the GH is questionable to a degree, you don't need to boo everything Frigabus says because it's about the Hungarians and happens to mention events that are only described in the GH.
 

Samitte

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The places Frigabus mentions still make infinitely more sense than picking random places or the same holy sites that Tengri has. The holy sites have their cons that 1. they are evenly distributed, but 2. not too far from eachother, and that 3. you could attach some meaning to them if you wanted. Even if everything described in the GH is questionable to a degree, you don't need to boo everything Frigabus says because it's about the Hungarians and happens to mention events that are only described in the GH.
I'm not 'booing' what he says because its about the Hungarians, I'm disagreeing because those holy sites rely on on Christian thinking, purposeful myth-making in the context of the 12th-13th century based on the contemporary situation at that time, and that the Hun-Hungarian connection seems to have been entirely external before the Hungarians adopted it.

You certainly can attach some meaning to them, but only if you disregard the historicity in favour of gameplay. If thats preferred, sure go ahead and base them on sites Christian myth making for the pre-Christian peoples that would later develop into the Hungarians.
 

ArVass

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I'm not 'booing' what he says because its about the Hungarians, I'm disagreeing because those holy sites rely on on Christian thinking, purposeful myth-making in the context of the 12th-13th century based on the contemporary situation at that time, and that the Hun-Hungarian connection seems to have been entirely external before the Hungarians adopted it.

You certainly can attach some meaning to them, but only if you disregard the historicity in favour of gameplay. If thats preferred, sure go ahead and base them on sites Christian myth making.
Holy sites are bs even for Catholic Christians anyway: it's unrealistic and stupid for a Catholic in, say, Poland, to consider some church in Kent or Köln a sacred, holy site of christianity. Holy sites make no sense anyway, so "historicity" is already disregarded. Pagan faiths all having their fixed 5 holy sites each is dumb anyway, so at least add some logic to them, not just like "oh yes we'll have to give Táltosism 5 holy sites at random because we created a system that requires 5 hs-es for each faith regardless of their actual characteristics and we refuse to be creative about it or to use otherwise ahistorical sources (even though that will kill all immersion and make roleplay when playing as Magyar pagan nomads trying to stay Magyar pagan nomads boring af)".

Edit: Yeah I used "anyway" too many times, sorry for that lmao
 
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Alenarae118

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TL;DR you can absolutely use made up legends if you have no other choices and it won't harm anyone anyway.
Agree, I believe it has been stated somewhere that when their is no historical source for the leaders of a certain place, they instead use local legendary leaders instead, since that is better then nothing and I would say it is the same thing with Religious sites.
 
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TheDarkMaster

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The devs can pick and choose which ones they want to use for game balance reasons. Baring some places having strong historical significance in the era, like Rome and Jerusalem for Catholics, the holy sites should generally follow a fairly consistent setup. For example, 1-2 holy sites in the heartlands of the religion, 1-2 on the edge and more difficult to defend, and 2 holy sites in natural expansion paths is a great way to do pagan holy sites. Dynamic holy sites would be even better, but this works for what holy sites mean and do.
 

Frigabus

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I tried to suggest holy places for the Pagan Hungarians which follow their long journey from the slopes of the Ural to the Carpathian Basin. If the Tengri and the Magyar faith has the same holy places, that would mean that the Hungarians should consider a place in the middle of Mongolia sacred although in 867 they probably didn't know its existence.
 
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ArVass

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I tried to suggest holy places for the Pagan Hungarians which follow their long journey from the slopes of the Ural to the Carpathian Basin. If the Tengri and the Magyar faith has the same holy places, that would mean that the Hungarians should consider a place in the middle of Mongolia sacred although in 867 they probably didn't know its existence.
It's confirmed that Táltosism will have its own holy sites, not the exact same ones as Tengrism, we just don't know where they are
 
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TheRealRemus

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wonderfull what you did with religions.
im curious about wether or not it is possible to set a religious caste in which for example only women are allowed To be priests and That their Offspring is only allowed to Serve in the church. Essential creating a religious caste.

IMO that would be cool!
 
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