• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Dev Diary #20 - Religion and Faith

Come one, come all! Zealots and cynics, fundamentalists and heretics! It is time for us to finally talk about religion in Crusader Kings III, and all that it entails.

While parts of the religion system in CK3 may seem familiar to fans of the previous games, the system itself has been completely rebuilt from the ground up. As a result, there is little point in talking about changes from CK2; instead, I will start diving into how religion works in CK3 and what that means to you as a player.

The Religious Hierarchy
The most logical place to start talking about religion in CK3 is with… Religions! As a game concept, a Religion is defined by four main things:
  • What Traits are considered Sins and Virtues (3 each by default)
  • What Religion Family it belongs to (Abrahamic, Oriental, or Pagan)
  • What the standard religious Doctrines are for its Faiths
  • What Tenets are available to its Faiths
Individual characters and counties will never believe in a whole Religion — they believe in a Faith instead, with each Religion having several Faiths under it. For example, Catholicism and Orthodoxy are Faiths under Christianity, while Theravada and Mahayana are Faiths under Buddhism.

DD_WM_ChristianFaiths.png

[Screenshot showing a selection of either Christian Faiths, including distinct Coptic and Apostolic Faiths]

Similar to the way that Faiths belong to a Religion, Religions belong to a Religion Family. Religion Families are little more than groups of Religions, but this does serve an important purpose, as it plays a significant part in how Faith Hostility is calculated (more on that in a later Dev Diary).

Anatomy of a Faith
So if a character believes in a Faith, what does that mean for them? Well, each Faith is based on its parent Religion and inherits those attributes, but will be differentiated from other Faiths by its Tenets, Doctrines, and Holy Sites.

Tenets
Tenets are mechanical representations of the most important rites, rituals, and traditions of a Faith. Every Faith has exactly 3, picked from a total of around 50 different Tenets in the whole game. Tenets are the things which make a Faith special and unique, the things that set it apart from the other Faiths even within the same Religion (and especially outside of it).

DD_WM_Catholicism.png

[Screenshot of the Catholic Faith’s 3 Tenets - Armed Pilgrimages, Communion, and Monasticism]

Taking Catholicism as an example, we see one of their Tenets is that of Communion. This Tenet is what allows the Catholic Pope to excommunicate rulers, as well as allowing rulers to buy Indulgences from the Pope.

DD_WM_CommunionTenet.png

[Screenshot of the Communion Tenet, promoting values of honesty and community among adherents]

You may notice here that Communion also modifies what traits are considered Sins and Virtues by the Faith. While every Faith inherits 3 Sins and Virtues from its parent Religion, Tenets can add, modify, or remove these.

While some Tenets are unique to a single Faith, others are shared among multiple Faiths. For example, both Catholicism and Orthodoxy have the Communion Tenet. However, it is important to note that no two Faiths have the exact same combination of Tenets — as a result, every Faith will play at least a little differently, and some drastically so!

DD_WM_SacredLies.png

[Screenshot of the Sacred Lies Tenet, promoting scheming and treachery among adherents]

Doctrines
While less impactful than Tenets, Doctrines are still a crucial part of each Faith. A Faith’s Doctrines determine both its clerical structure as well as what its adherents can and cannot legally do.

DD_WM_Doctrines.png

[Screenshot of the Catholic Doctrines]

Every Faith has at least 18 Doctrines, with a few extras depending on the circumstances. While every Religion has a default stance for each Doctrine, these should be considered guidelines more than actual rules; individual Faiths can and do break away from standard dogma when appropriate. The different Doctrines are broken up into 4 categories:

  • Main Doctrines
  • Marriage Doctrines
  • Crime Doctrines
  • Clergy Doctrines

Main Doctrines cover how a Faith is organized on a fundamental level. These include things such as the traditional gender roles of a Faith, if the Faith has a Religious Head or not, how accepting (or unaccepting!) the Faith is of other Faiths and Religions, and if its priests must be part of a dedicated theocracy or if lay clergy are permitted.

Marriage Doctrines cover who is allowed to get married and how: if rulers can have multiple spouses, if concubines are permitted, if and when divorce is permitted, if extramarital relations can result in legitimate heirs, and who can even get married in the first place.

The Crime Doctrines cover what acts, if any, are considered immoral or even outright criminal. Characters who are publicly known to have violated these principles are Shunned, suffering an opinion penalty with all characters of that Faith, and may even be considered an outright Criminal who can be lawfully imprisoned and punished for their violations against divine law.

Finally the Clergy Doctrines determine how priests must behave and what their primary role in society is. The Clergy Doctrines also determine what power, if any, secular rulers have over the clergy within their realm.

Holy Sites
Finally, every Faith has some number of Holy Sites that this Faith considers to be more sacred than the rest. Controlling these Holy Sites will give a bonus to all characters of that Faith; this can create a significant source of conflict in the game, as many different Faiths can share specific Holy Sites, and every one of them wants to be the one in control!

DD_WM_HolySites.png

[Screenshot showing the five Orthodox Holy Sites and their corresponding bonuses]

Moddability
I’m going to go on a quick tangent here and talk about modding Faiths and Religions in Crusader Kings III. Primarily, I want to mention that everything I have talked about so far is completely modular! This means Religion Groups, Religions, Faiths, Doctrines, Tenets, and Holy Sites can all be swapped in and out, modified, changed, or new ones added with even just a basic knowledge of scripting.

DD_WM_Script.png

[Screenshot of a script snippet showcasing the Coptic Faith’s parameters]

This is one of the primary reasons we settled on the Faith, Tenet, and Doctrine system for CK3. Even though religion has a massive impact and touches dozens of game systems, it is easy for even new modders to dip their toes into the pool and start adding or changing things as they see fit. For experienced modders, this setup improves productivity and reduces the risk of introducing bugs. This has also had the side-effect of improving our productivity here at the office, which brings me to...

This is my Faith. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
At current count, we have 99 different Faiths in Crusader Kings III, all of which are fully playable. That more than doubles the number of playable religions we had in CK2 after Jade Dragon released.

DD_WM_EgyptNubia.png

[Screenshot of Egypt and Nubia, showing the diverse number of Faiths in the region]

Remember what I said earlier about how no two Faiths have the same combination of Tenets, and how every Faith would play at least slightly differently?

Yeah.

Your options are quite extensive:
  • You can play as the good ol’ Catholics, or one of their heresies like the Cathars.
  • You can play a different branch of Christianity, such as the Coptic Church or the Armenian Apostolic Church.
  • You can play as a more unusual branch of Christianity like the Adamites.
  • You can play not just as Sunni or Shia, but as individual religious movements or schools within them such as the Ash’ari or Maturidi, and the Isma’ili or Qarmatian.
  • You can play as various Jewish movements, such as the Karaites or Rabbanists.
  • You can play as a Dualist sect, such as Sabianism or Manicheanism.
  • You can play as individual branches of Hinduism, such as Vaishnavism and Shaktism, or make the choice between Therevada, Mahayana, and Vajrayana Buddhism.
  • You can play as one of three different schools of Confucianism, shaped by differing philosophies and focuses.
  • You can play as a distinct African pagan Faith such as Bori Animism or the Senegambian Roog Sene.
  • You can play as either Tengri or Magyar steppe pagans each with their own special traditions.
  • You can play as one of the Indian or Tibetan pagans as well, extending beyond Bon and into other regional and cultural Faiths.
  • Finally, don't forget the old favorite pagan Faiths like Norse (now called Asatru)!
While many of these faiths will have some similarities and common elements (especially within the same Religion), none of them are identical to each other. They all differentiate themselves mechanically in at least one way, and often in many ways. But… let’s say you’ve looked at every single one of these Faiths, and none of them are quite right. What, then, is a soul-searching medieval ruler to do?

Well, join us next week for the Dev Diary on Custom Faith Creation and Pagan Reformation!
 
  • 18Love
  • 7Like
  • 5
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:
That is what I thought. It's a bit of a missed opportunity that there is no way of reforming a faith "from withing", e.g. by lobbying the pope/spiritual head of religion or holding Councils.
Hopefully we'll get the councils later.

Along with shared religious heads.
 
  • 3
Reactions:
That is what I thought. It's a bit of a missed opportunity that there is no way of reforming a faith "from within", e.g. by lobbying the pope/spiritual head of religion or holding Councils.
That's precisely what Baron von Shoes said wanted implemented but couldn't and hopes to do it in the future.
 
  • 2
  • 1Love
  • 1
Reactions:
Pagan Hungarians in the Kingdom of Hungary in 1066. In 1066 the Christianisation of Hungary had not been finished yet. In 1046 there was a great pagan rebellion (the so-called Vata pagan uprising) which was a real threat to the new Christian kingdom established only about 46 years earlier. At least 3 bishops were killed including Saint Gerard of Csanad. In 1061 there was a smaller and less violent uprising. That indicates that in 1066 a significant part of the Hungarians was still Pagan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vata_pagan_uprising

Suggestion: a few (1-3) counties (Bács, Csanád?) in the southern part of Hungary, east of the Danube could be Pagan.
 
  • 3
  • 1
Reactions:
Hungarian Pagan holy places. I have 4 in my mind based upon the legends of the Hungarians.

 
  • 2Like
  • 2
Reactions:
Hungarian Pagan holy places. I have 4 in my mind based upon the legends of the Hungarians.


Don't the myth-making elements of the chronicles for facts, especially not for the period preceeding it. The GH was a concious myth-making excercise, and to assume it speaks for the Magyar during the 9th-11th century is a mistake. Especially the associations with the Huns should be avoided.

The conquest can be corroborated through other sources, but things like the blood oath, the Hun - Hungarian links, Hunor and Magor, and the Biblical elements, are all later fabrications and should not be attached to the Magyars.
 
Don't the myth-making elements of the chronicles for facts, especially not for the period preceeding it. The GH was a concious myth-making excercise, and to assume it speaks for the Magyar during the 9th-11th century is a mistake. Especially the associations with the Huns should be avoided.

The conquest can be corroborated through other sources, but things like the blood oath, the Hun - Hungarian links, Hunor and Magor, and the Biblical elements, are all later fabrications and should not be attached to the Magyars.
What you say is true, there are more or less later fabrications (but probably based on some kind of oral tradition). The only problem is that due to the diligent Christianisation we know hardly anything of the ancient Hungarian faith. If you don't want to use these kinds of fabrications to determine the holy places of the Pagan Hungarians in CK3 than you could only use any random province not too far...
 
  • 3
Reactions:
What you say is true, there are more or less later fabrications (but probably based on some kind of oral tradition). The only problem is that due to the diligent Christianisation we know hardly anything of the ancient Hungarian faith. If you don't want to use these kinds of fabrications to determine the holy places of the Pagan Hungarians in CK3 than you could only use any random province not too far...

The game is already stretching history by having the Magyar as one grouping, called the Magyars. To quote Imre Boba:

Without attempting to solve the problems of the origin of the Hungarians, it must be emphatically stated that the application of the names ‘Magyar’, ‘Hungarian’ or ‘Ungar’ to any tribal formation participating in the events of the ninth century is an anachronism of is based on an unsubstantiated assumption that the Hungarians (Magyars) of today can be identified with a single group active in the steppe zone in the ninth century.

The forging of the Magyars/Hungarians as a people happened on the anvil of their monotheization and sedenterization. To make their holy sites based on Christian Hungarian myth-making makes less sense then picking some random places nearby. Though in my opinion their path should be to adopt a monotheistic belief anyway, and if the player wants to stay Pagan as the alt-history option that should require significant efforts.
 
  • 2
  • 1Like
Reactions:
The game is already stretching history by having the Magyar as one grouping, called the Magyars. To quote Imre Boba:



The forging of the Magyars/Hungarians as a people happened on the anvil of their monotheization and sedenterization. To make their holy sites based on Christian Hungarian myth-making makes less sense then picking some random places nearby. Though in my opinion their path should be to adopt a monotheistic belief anyway, and if the player wants to stay Pagan as the alt-history option that should require significant efforts.
If you say that 'the Hungarians (Magyars) of today cannot be identified with a single group active in the steppe zone in the ninth century' than the same can be said of the Pechenegs, Cumans etc. so all of the steppe dwellers with their swiftly changing ethnic composition.
If you say that 'to make their holy sites based on Christian Hungarian myth-making makes less sense then picking some random places nearby' than the same can be said of Santiago de Compostella where the remnants of Saint James the Greater were found just before 867. Of course, there's a chance that the bones were Saint James' bones but most likely it was a successful Christian myth-making.
I agree that the Hungarians' path was to adopt Christianity (or vanish otherwise). But CK3 is a game of historical possibilities and for a zealous Pagan Hungarian, fighting for Meotis or Etelköz is much more rousing than to wage a war for, say, Znoimo.
 
  • 3
  • 1
Reactions:
If you say that 'to make their holy sites based on Christian Hungarian myth-making makes less sense then picking some random places nearby' than the same can be said of Santiago de Compostella where the remnants of Saint James the Greater were found just before 867. Of course, there's a chance that the bones were Saint James' bones but most likely it was a successful Christian myth-making.

The cult of saints is a whole different beast and not comparable to whats happening in the Hungarian chronicles. These tell us more about the time they are written in, then the time they write about.


I agree that the Hungarians' path was to adopt Christianity (or vanish otherwise). But CK3 is a game of historical possibilities and for a zealous Pagan Hungarian, fighting for Meotis or Etelköz is much more rousing than to wage a war for, say, Znoimo.

But then you are fighting for essentially things informed by Christian myth-making done centuries in the future, which in turn would then never exist since the basis of those ideas relies on the adoption of monotheism...
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Don't the myth-making elements of the chronicles for facts, especially not for the period preceeding it. The GH was a concious myth-making excercise, and to assume it speaks for the Magyar during the 9th-11th century is a mistake. Especially the associations with the Huns should be avoided.

The conquest can be corroborated through other sources, but things like the blood oath, the Hun - Hungarian links, Hunor and Magor, and the Biblical elements, are all later fabrications and should not be attached to the Magyars.
The places Frigabus mentions still make infinitely more sense than picking random places or the same holy sites that Tengri has. The holy sites have their cons that 1. they are evenly distributed, but 2. not too far from eachother, and that 3. you could attach some meaning to them if you wanted. Even if everything described in the GH is questionable to a degree, you don't need to boo everything Frigabus says because it's about the Hungarians and happens to mention events that are only described in the GH.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
The places Frigabus mentions still make infinitely more sense than picking random places or the same holy sites that Tengri has. The holy sites have their cons that 1. they are evenly distributed, but 2. not too far from eachother, and that 3. you could attach some meaning to them if you wanted. Even if everything described in the GH is questionable to a degree, you don't need to boo everything Frigabus says because it's about the Hungarians and happens to mention events that are only described in the GH.

I'm not 'booing' what he says because its about the Hungarians, I'm disagreeing because those holy sites rely on on Christian thinking, purposeful myth-making in the context of the 12th-13th century based on the contemporary situation at that time, and that the Hun-Hungarian connection seems to have been entirely external before the Hungarians adopted it.

You certainly can attach some meaning to them, but only if you disregard the historicity in favour of gameplay. If thats preferred, sure go ahead and base them on sites Christian myth making for the pre-Christian peoples that would later develop into the Hungarians.
 
I'm not 'booing' what he says because its about the Hungarians, I'm disagreeing because those holy sites rely on on Christian thinking, purposeful myth-making in the context of the 12th-13th century based on the contemporary situation at that time, and that the Hun-Hungarian connection seems to have been entirely external before the Hungarians adopted it.

You certainly can attach some meaning to them, but only if you disregard the historicity in favour of gameplay. If thats preferred, sure go ahead and base them on sites Christian myth making.
Holy sites are bs even for Catholic Christians anyway: it's unrealistic and stupid for a Catholic in, say, Poland, to consider some church in Kent or Köln a sacred, holy site of christianity. Holy sites make no sense anyway, so "historicity" is already disregarded. Pagan faiths all having their fixed 5 holy sites each is dumb anyway, so at least add some logic to them, not just like "oh yes we'll have to give Táltosism 5 holy sites at random because we created a system that requires 5 hs-es for each faith regardless of their actual characteristics and we refuse to be creative about it or to use otherwise ahistorical sources (even though that will kill all immersion and make roleplay when playing as Magyar pagan nomads trying to stay Magyar pagan nomads boring af)".

Edit: Yeah I used "anyway" too many times, sorry for that lmao
 
Last edited:
  • 3
Reactions:
TL;DR you can absolutely use made up legends if you have no other choices and it won't harm anyone anyway.
Agree, I believe it has been stated somewhere that when their is no historical source for the leaders of a certain place, they instead use local legendary leaders instead, since that is better then nothing and I would say it is the same thing with Religious sites.
 
  • 3
Reactions:
The devs can pick and choose which ones they want to use for game balance reasons. Baring some places having strong historical significance in the era, like Rome and Jerusalem for Catholics, the holy sites should generally follow a fairly consistent setup. For example, 1-2 holy sites in the heartlands of the religion, 1-2 on the edge and more difficult to defend, and 2 holy sites in natural expansion paths is a great way to do pagan holy sites. Dynamic holy sites would be even better, but this works for what holy sites mean and do.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
I tried to suggest holy places for the Pagan Hungarians which follow their long journey from the slopes of the Ural to the Carpathian Basin. If the Tengri and the Magyar faith has the same holy places, that would mean that the Hungarians should consider a place in the middle of Mongolia sacred although in 867 they probably didn't know its existence.
 
  • 3Like
Reactions:
I tried to suggest holy places for the Pagan Hungarians which follow their long journey from the slopes of the Ural to the Carpathian Basin. If the Tengri and the Magyar faith has the same holy places, that would mean that the Hungarians should consider a place in the middle of Mongolia sacred although in 867 they probably didn't know its existence.
It's confirmed that Táltosism will have its own holy sites, not the exact same ones as Tengrism, we just don't know where they are
 
Last edited:
  • 2
Reactions:
wonderfull what you did with religions.
im curious about wether or not it is possible to set a religious caste in which for example only women are allowed To be priests and That their Offspring is only allowed to Serve in the church. Essential creating a religious caste.

IMO that would be cool!
 
  • 2
Reactions: