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kemmy23

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  • You can play not just as Sunni or Shia, but as individual religious movements or schools within them such as the Ash’ari or Maturidi, and the Isma’ili or Qarmatian.
While I welcome the breaking down of Shia into some of its respective denominations, I feel the mention of Ash’ari and Maturidi (as currently advertised) falsely treats them as two opposing denominations of Sunni Islam rather than perspectives within Kalam. Paradox wants to represent the different strands of Sunni thought, I feel it would be more accurate to model the Sunni Madhhab (schools of fiqh). That way you would more accurate simulate the divisions within the Sunni world rather than simply going down the rather arbitrary binary of Ash'arite and Maturdite.
 

Teutonic_Thrash

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While I welcome the breaking down of Shia into some of its respective denominations, I feel the mention of Ash’ari and Maturidi (as currently advertised) falsely treats them as two opposing denominations of Sunni Islam rather than perspectives within Kalam. Paradox wants to represent the different strands of Sunni thought, I feel it would be more accurate to model the Sunni Madhhab (schools of fiqh). That way you would more accurate simulate the divisions within the Sunni world rather than simply going down the rather arbitrary binary of Ash'arite and Maturdite.
Agreed, though even splitting Sunnism into the different madhhabs would be too far in my opinion.
 

kemmy23

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Agreed, though even splitting Sunnism into the different madhhabs would be too far in my opinion.
Oh I do agree with you on that, however I always felt in previous games that how Sunni Islam was simulated was far too much of a monolith and at least showing splitting it up by Madhhabt would at least give a measure of the diversity of thought.
 

Tschobo

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I wonder how the nudist Adamites will be represented with full-body portraits.
I would guess as nudists, they would be shown nude.

I wonder how these nudist religions work completely. Imagine an event with a fully clothed pope and a nudist king carousing.
 
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This is fantastic... it feels totally different tying the seven deadly sins and virtues into the faiths. Love the doctrines stuff and the idea that you can break them... I hope you can break the rules and depending on your character you are more likely to get away with it... and how many faiths? Holy... FURY!
 

DreadLindwyrm

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Sorry, I'm bad speak english. Will there be a chain to the great schism? Or will Orthodoxy be available immediately? ( If someone does not know the great schism - 1054 ad)
The great schism is complicated.
1054 was just the final step, but the churches had effectively split many times over different matters, and functioned differently well before the schism was formalised.
 

Orinsul

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The great schism is complicated.
1054 was just the final step, but the churches had effectively split many times over different matters, and functioned differently well before the schism was formalised.
its even arguable, that from rites, language and structure differences they were never the same in most terms. they just worked together politically, most of the time.
'
even if they are shown as different 'faiths' it'd still be nice to have a schism event as it was still a thing
 

DreadLindwyrm

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its even arguable, that from rites, language and structure differences they were never the same in most terms. they just worked together politically, most of the time.
'
even if they are shown as different 'faiths' it'd still be nice to have a schism event as it was still a thing
Having a dynamic "mutual excommunication" event if the faiths get to a stage where they're moving from "tolerated" to "disliked" or "accepted" to "tolerated", depending on how these work would make sense and be logical.
 

Lord Hoosier

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Dang this looks great. I see Kushite in that last Screenshot, does that mean there will be more Pagan Faiths in-game? Is it possible to bring back the Polytheistic Egyptian Religion?
Kushite likely refers to Nubian Christianity.
 

wilcoxchar

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spaninq

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Kushite likely refers to Nubian Christianity.
See post #88 (on page 5 of this thread).
"Celtic paganism is not in. Egyptian paganism is... kind of in? Kushitism (shown in the DD's screenshot) draws many elements and influences from it, including the inclusion of various Egyptian gods as part of its pantheon. However, it is not immediately recognizable as the Egyptian paganism that was popularized after Napoleon's Egyptian Campaign, since it focuses more on Upper Egypt/Nubia than Lower Egypt."
 

Failtier

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You can play as one of three different schools of Confucianism, shaped by differing philosophies and focuses.
I am really intrigued by this! Have you already revealed which exact schools you are including? IMO, Neo-Confucianism, Old Text (Zuo zhuan) Confucianism and New Text (Gongyang zhuan) Confucianism would make most sense since these lines of discourse play a major role from Ancient to modern times. During the early Han period (206 BC–9 AD), the Five Classics and the New Text (i.e. Gongyang and Guliang) commentaries on the Spring and Autumn Annals were prioritized until the usurpation of Wang Mang (9-23 AD) who introduced the Old Text (i.e. Zuo) commentary on the Annals to justify his rule. His usurpation also marks the transition to the Later Han period (25–220 AD) following his rule.

Neo-Confucianism only became dominant since the 12th century, and it was incorporating Buddhist elements and further emphasizing the role of Mengzi and his Analects instead of Kongzi and the Spring and Autumn Annals. The conflict between these three schools would later on, beginning in the 18th century, dominate the political discourse, and the animosities between each school would eventually be elevated to the highest political levels when New Text advocates such as Kang Youwei and Liang Qichao attempted to reform China's political system ("Hundred Days' Reform") after China's defeat in the Sino-Japanese War.

I have written my BA thesis on this, it's a very interesting topic.
 
Last edited:

odinnot

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In Ck3 i would like to see,when someone in the family is make a saint. Then there is religious relics from that saint. Maybe the relic is a book,sword,body part etc.
I can build a religious site for that saint. Like St. Peter's Basilica.
Also if a other religion control the land a saint body lay.
Then i can try to steal it. buried the body in my land,just when st mark's body brought to venice.
If other religion respect the saint body.then they will get good Christian opinion.
 

MagusMist

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Armenian Apostolic Church is part of Oriental Orthodoxy- same as Coptic Church. Why is there a difference between those Faiths in game?

Also, are tenets or doctrine customizable via events? Can mods basically introduce events where doctrines or tenets change?

What about Unions between Christianity? For example Council of Lyons and Union between Orthodox and Catholic Churches? Will they be anyhow represented in the game? And what about Chalcedonian and Great Schism ? :O

This looks great.. I am so looking forward to this! GJ
 
Last edited:

Lord Hoosier

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See post #88 (on page 5 of this thread).
"Celtic paganism is not in. Egyptian paganism is... kind of in? Kushitism (shown in the DD's screenshot) draws many elements and influences from it, including the inclusion of various Egyptian gods as part of its pantheon. However, it is not immediately recognizable as the Egyptian paganism that was popularized after Napoleon's Egyptian Campaign, since it focuses more on Upper Egypt/Nubia than Lower Egypt."
Did not see that, but very interesting. Thanks.
 

Elvenoob

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Celtic paganism is not in.
Hold up WHAT!?

Why would you keep nothing cults like zunism around and not even give the historical celt characters YOU EVEN HAVE IN THE CK2 FILES under generic pagan, an actual religion!? Like, what's the point of this dead religions thing anyway if you don't even use it to clean out the cobwebs and issues from the last game anyway!?
 
Sep 11, 2017
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Come one, come all! Zealots and cynics, fundamentalists and heretics! It is time for us to finally talk about religion in Crusader Kings III, and all that it entails.

While parts of the religion system in CK3 may seem familiar to fans of the previous games, the system itself has been completely rebuilt from the ground up. As a result, there is little point in talking about changes from CK2; instead, I will start diving into how religion works in CK3 and what that means to you as a player.

The Religious Hierarchy
The most logical place to start talking about religion in CK3 is with… Religions! As a game concept, a Religion is defined by four main things:
  • What Traits are considered Sins and Virtues (3 each by default)
  • What Religion Family it belongs to (Abrahamic, Oriental, or Pagan)
  • What the standard religious Doctrines are for its Faiths
  • What Tenets are available to its Faiths
Individual characters and counties will never believe in a whole Religion — they believe in a Faith instead, with each Religion having several Faiths under it. For example, Catholicism and Orthodoxy are Faiths under Christianity, while Theravada and Mahayana are Faiths under Buddhism.

View attachment 561061
[Screenshot showing a selection of either Christian Faiths, including distinct Coptic and Apostolic Faiths]

Similar to the way that Faiths belong to a Religion, Religions belong to a Religion Family. Religion Families are little more than groups of Religions, but this does serve an important purpose, as it plays a significant part in how Faith Hostility is calculated (more on that in a later Dev Diary).

Anatomy of a Faith
So if a character believes in a Faith, what does that mean for them? Well, each Faith is based on its parent Religion and inherits those attributes, but will be differentiated from other Faiths by its Tenets, Doctrines, and Holy Sites.

Tenets
Tenets are mechanical representations of the most important rites, rituals, and traditions of a Faith. Every Faith has exactly 3, picked from a total of around 50 different Tenets in the whole game. Tenets are the things which make a Faith special and unique, the things that set it apart from the other Faiths even within the same Religion (and especially outside of it).

View attachment 561052
[Screenshot of the Catholic Faith’s 3 Tenets - Armed Pilgrimages, Communion, and Monasticism]

Taking Catholicism as an example, we see one of their Tenets is that of Communion. This Tenet is what allows the Catholic Pope to excommunicate rulers, as well as allowing rulers to buy Indulgences from the Pope.

View attachment 561053
[Screenshot of the Communion Tenet, promoting values of honesty and community among adherents]

You may notice here that Communion also modifies what traits are considered Sins and Virtues by the Faith. While every Faith inherits 3 Sins and Virtues from its parent Religion, Tenets can add, modify, or remove these.

While some Tenets are unique to a single Faith, others are shared among multiple Faiths. For example, both Catholicism and Orthodoxy have the Communion Tenet. However, it is important to note that no two Faiths have the exact same combination of Tenets — as a result, every Faith will play at least a little differently, and some drastically so!

View attachment 561054
[Screenshot of the Sacred Lies Tenet, promoting scheming and treachery among adherents]

Doctrines
While less impactful than Tenets, Doctrines are still a crucial part of each Faith. A Faith’s Doctrines determine both its clerical structure as well as what its adherents can and cannot legally do.

View attachment 561055
[Screenshot of the Catholic Doctrines]

Every Faith has at least 18 Doctrines, with a few extras depending on the circumstances. While every Religion has a default stance for each Doctrine, these should be considered guidelines more than actual rules; individual Faiths can and do break away from standard dogma when appropriate. The different Doctrines are broken up into 4 categories:

  • Main Doctrines
  • Marriage Doctrines
  • Crime Doctrines
  • Clergy Doctrines

Main Doctrines cover how a Faith is organized on a fundamental level. These include things such as the traditional gender roles of a Faith, if the Faith has a Religious Head or not, how accepting (or unaccepting!) the Faith is of other Faiths and Religions, and if its priests must be part of a dedicated theocracy or if lay clergy are permitted.

Marriage Doctrines cover who is allowed to get married and how: if rulers can have multiple spouses, if concubines are permitted, if and when divorce is permitted, if extramarital relations can result in legitimate heirs, and who can even get married in the first place.

The Crime Doctrines cover what acts, if any, are considered immoral or even outright criminal. Characters who are publicly known to have violated these principles are Shunned, suffering an opinion penalty with all characters of that Faith, and may even be considered an outright Criminal who can be lawfully imprisoned and punished for their violations against divine law.

Finally the Clergy Doctrines determine how priests must behave and what their primary role in society is. The Clergy Doctrines also determine what power, if any, secular rulers have over the clergy within their realm.

Holy Sites
Finally, every Faith has some number of Holy Sites that this Faith considers to be more sacred than the rest. Controlling these Holy Sites will give a bonus to all characters of that Faith; this can create a significant source of conflict in the game, as many different Faiths can share specific Holy Sites, and every one of them wants to be the one in control!

View attachment 561057
[Screenshot showing the five Orthodox Holy Sites and their corresponding bonuses]

Moddability
I’m going to go on a quick tangent here and talk about modding Faiths and Religions in Crusader Kings III. Primarily, I want to mention that everything I have talked about so far is completely modular! This means Religion Groups, Religions, Faiths, Doctrines, Tenets, and Holy Sites can all be swapped in and out, modified, changed, or new ones added with even just a basic knowledge of scripting.

View attachment 561059
[Screenshot of a script snippet showcasing the Coptic Faith’s parameters]

This is one of the primary reasons we settled on the Faith, Tenet, and Doctrine system for CK3. Even though religion has a massive impact and touches dozens of game systems, it is easy for even new modders to dip their toes into the pool and start adding or changing things as they see fit. For experienced modders, this setup improves productivity and reduces the risk of introducing bugs. This has also had the side-effect of improving our productivity here at the office, which brings me to...

This is my Faith. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
At current count, we have 99 different Faiths in Crusader Kings III, all of which are fully playable. That more than doubles the number of playable religions we had in CK2 after Jade Dragon released.

View attachment 561060
[Screenshot of Egypt and Nubia, showing the diverse number of Faiths in the region]

Remember what I said earlier about how no two Faiths have the same combination of Tenets, and how every Faith would play at least slightly differently?

Yeah.

Your options are quite extensive:
  • You can play as the good ol’ Catholics, or one of their heresies like the Cathars.
  • You can play a different branch of Christianity, such as the Coptic Church or the Armenian Apostolic Church.
  • You can play as a more unusual branch of Christianity like the Adamites.
  • You can play not just as Sunni or Shia, but as individual religious movements or schools within them such as the Ash’ari or Maturidi, and the Isma’ili or Qarmatian.
  • You can play as various Jewish movements, such as the Karaites or Rabbanists.
  • You can play as a Dualist sect, such as Sabianism or Manicheanism.
  • You can play as individual branches of Hinduism, such as Vaishnavism and Shaktism, or make the choice between Therevada, Mahayana, and Vajrayana Buddhism.
  • You can play as one of three different schools of Confucianism, shaped by differing philosophies and focuses.
  • You can play as a distinct African pagan Faith such as Bori Animism or the Senegambian Roog Sene.
  • You can play as either Tengri or Magyar steppe pagans each with their own special traditions.
  • You can play as one of the Indian or Tibetan pagans as well, extending beyond Bon and into other regional and cultural Faiths.
  • Finally, don't forget the old favorite pagan Faiths like Norse (now called Asatru)!
While many of these faiths will have some similarities and common elements (especially within the same Religion), none of them are identical to each other. They all differentiate themselves mechanically in at least one way, and often in many ways. But… let’s say you’ve looked at every single one of these Faiths, and none of them are quite right. What, then, is a soul-searching medieval ruler to do?

Well, join us next week for the Dev Diary on Custom Faith Creation and Pagan Reformation!
So China confirmed?