Deus Vult Improvement Pack - Discussion

[Calgacus]

Gospatrick of Dunbar, Duke of Lothian, is of a different dynasty to his full brother Maeldred of Atholl.
They are also both share a paternal grandfather (Crinan of Athol) with the King of Scotland, who is of yet another dynasty. (Although wikipedia suggests that the failure of Gospatrick's heirs to claim descent from Crinan when the Dunkeld line died out could imply that he hadn't been Gospatrick's grandfather)

No evidence exists that would to link Crinan father of Donnchad I to Crinan father of Maldred father of Gospatric, except the name. A similar argument would make Henry II the brother of Alexander II, both having grandfathers with the same name (Henry).

Also, it would seem unlikely as Donnchad II married Gospatric's daughter, who would have been his 2nd cousin. Now while this is not unheard of, it is stretching it.

Gospatric incidentally has no known brothers, thus this Maeldred has been made up by the game designers.

Cináed mac Maíl Coluim mac Ailpin dies in 967, three years before his second son, Suibne mac Cináeda of Argyll is born, which though probably just a wrong date, could alternatively be due to the wrong Cináed being made father of Suibne mac Cináeda.

Gilla Brigte of Argyll's eldest son, Fergus of Galloway, is of a different dynasty to him.

Cináed mac Maíl Coluim (died 971) is the father of Mael Coluim II, and the theory is that Suibne and Mael Coluim were brothers. So that'd be correct.

Gilla Brigte of Argyll's eldest son, Fergus of Galloway, is of a different dynasty to him.

I think I am the one behind that, and it would have been intentional. The scenario makes Somerled of Argyll (whose father is named Gille Brigte) and Fergus of Galloway brothers, a scenario suggested in passing by historian Alex Woolf. It's pretty unlikely of course that Fergus was in his 90s when he died, but it is possible and fun.

 

[Calgacus]

For the 1187 scenario, you might wanna add brothers for Donnchadh (Duncan) the earl of Carrick: Mael Coluim (died 1174) and Gille-Chonaill (still alive 1233) nicknamed "Manntach", which means "the Stammerer". This will broaden the succession base to the Carrick family. As will connecting them to the Macduff family by making Donnchadh's mother a daughter of Donnchadh I (or II) of Fife.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donnchadh,_Earl_of_Carrick

 

[Lambert Simnel]

I think I am the one behind that, and it would have been intentional. The scenario makes Somerled of Argyll (whose father is named Gille Brigte) and Fergus of Galloway brothers, a scenario suggested in passing by historian Alex Woolf. It's pretty unlikely of course that Fergus was in his 90s when he died, but it is possible and fun.

It does, though, mean that if you start as Count of Argyll it is going to be game over when you die, unless you dispose of Fergus of Galloway first.

 

[Calgacus]

It does, though, mean that if you start as Count of Argyll it is going to be game over when you die, unless you dispose of Fergus of Galloway first.

Yeah ... that's right, if the player is human. I guess it needs to be changed then. Just making him a bastard likely won't do it either, as events could legitimise him.

 

[Drachenfire]

Other observations for 1187 and 1204:


1. Should the King of Scotland not be tagged to the Dunkeld dynasty (as opposed to Dùn Chailleann dynasty? Also, there is an 'of' before Dùn Chailleann which looks incorrect, should not the of be dropped as it is in the 1066 scenario? If 'of' should be part of the dynasty name, if the name is rendered in Gaelic, should not 'of' too?

2. Correct dynasty names for rulers of Denmark and Norway. Denmark was ruled by Canute VI of Denmark 1182-1202 and Valdemar II of Denmark from 1202 onwards, both apparently of the Estridsen dynasty. Norway was ruled by Inge II of Norway apparently of the Gille branch of the Hårfagreætta (Fairhair) dynasty. Personally I like how Hårfagreætta looks as a name though

3. Create Queen Urraca of Leon as an important ancestress of the kings of Leon and Castile in 1187 and 1204. She should be of the Jiménez dynasty and mother of Alfonso VII of León and Castile (an recent ancestor of the kings of Leon and Castile in both the 1187 and 1204 scenarios). I recommend the traits Energetuic, just, proud, wise, maybe valourous, and Emporer trait for Urraca and for her son Alfonso VII. I know they didn't actually hold "five kingship titles" (Urraca personally held four) but they did hold the very real title Imperator totius Hispaniae in a very real sense, and it is appropriate and only flavorful anyway at this point.

4. Gwynedd and Perfeddwlad should both have a small castle, and both should have a Large Church (Bangor Cathedral for Gwynedd, and St Asaph Cathedral for Perfeddwlad), as well as a monestary in both. Also, Morgannwg should have a monestary and Large Church Llandaff Cathedral

5. All counties and duchies of Aquitainia, Burgandy, Spain, Brittany, and England, and the Marcher lords in Wales should all now follow male preference primogeniture (women inherit after their brothers). This should be the natural law for these realms.

 

[Drachenfire]

Cathar Christians

The Duchy of Toulouse and its various counties should all be heretic to represent the Cathar influence in this region. According to various sources even the high nobility defended the Cathars against the Catholic Church.

Raymond de Tolouse, b. 1156, Duke of Tolouse, two times excommunicated for defending the Cathars and ejecting the Catholic leget, and widely accused of being behind his death!!!

• Guillemette b. 1176
• Constance b. 1179
• Indie b. 1184
• Raymond b. 1197
• Beatrix de Brezienes b. 1153. For some reason, she is listed in Carcessonne, should this be correct?
• Boudoin de Toulouse b. 1165 brother
• Adelaide de Tolouse

Roger-Raymond Trencval, Count of Carcessonne, (b. 1185) Strident defender of the Cathars, and Carcessonne became the center for the Cathar resistance.

Guillame de Montpellier (b. 1185) Count of Montpellier, also a strong supporter of the Cathars.

Raymond-Roger de Foix (b. 1155) Count of Foix, and his son Rofer-Bernard de Foix (b. 1186) and his daugher Cecile de Foix (b. 1195).

All the counties of the Duchy of Toulouse should be heretical: Toulouse, Rovergue, Gervadan, Viverias (?), Carcassonne, Montpellier, Narbonne, Foix, and Provence. All counts and dukes of Toulouse should be rivals with the Pope in the two scenarios.

 

[Drachenfire]

1187 and 1174 "Counts" for England


Earl of Cornwall: 1187 John of England, in 1204 it should be 1.Henry "FitzCount" de Dunstanville, who was the bastard son of Reginald de Dunstanville, 1st Earl of Cornwall (d. 1175). Henry FitzCount de Dunstanville did not become Earl until 1217, but I think it is appropriate in this context to go ahead and grant him the title early so as to take some of the excessive count titles from England. Sorta like assigning the brides to people who havent wedded at a scenario start.

"Count of Exeter" historically during this periode it was the Earl of Devon who held this title. In 1187 it was Richard de Redvers (b. unknown d. 1193), then his uncle William de Redvers, 5th Earl of Devon Will's his children:

• Baldwin de Redvers (b. after 28 April 1200; d. 1 September 1216), eventually his daughter Isabella de Fortibus would inherit and become Countess of Devon
• Mary de Redvers, married 1.Pierre des Preaux 2.Robert de Courtenay of Okehampton.
• Joan de Redvers, married William Brewere; she had been engaged to Hubert de Burgh, later Earl of Kent, but it was broken off
  
  More to come shortly

 

[Lambert Simnel]

No evidence exists that would to link Crinan father of Donnchad I to Crinan father of Maldred father of Gospatric, except the name. A similar argument would make Henry II the brother of Alexander II, both having grandfathers with the same name (Henry).

Also, it would seem unlikely as Donnchad II married Gospatric's daughter, who would have been his 2nd cousin. Now while this is not unheard of, it is stretching it.

Gospatric incidentally has no known brothers, thus this Maeldred has been made up by the game designers.

It looks like Maeldred of Atholl is meant to be this guy, in which case he isn't made up, just mis-located.

 

[Calgacus]

Other observations for 1187 and 1204:
1. Should the King of Scotland not be tagged to the Dunkeld dynasty (as opposed to Dùn Chailleann dynasty? Also, there is an 'of' before Dùn Chailleann which looks incorrect, should not the of be dropped as it is in the 1066 scenario? If 'of' should be part of the dynasty name, if the name is rendered in Gaelic, should not 'of' too?

Is Mael Coluim III English now too? :rofl: I wouldn't get too worried about it anyway, the dynasty is a modern invention. I'd just get rid of Dùn Chailleann. I realise it's there to try to create some kind of something some people here believe to be historical, but it's not, and just creates an inaccurate distinction; in any case it is written in the orthography of a different era from the spellings of the forenames.

But for interest, here is the obit of Mael Coluim's grandfather:
"Cath eter Albanchu fein i torchair Cronan, ab Duine Caillenn" ("A battle between the men of Scotland themselves, in which Crinan abbot of Dunkeld fell")

It looks like Maeldred of Atholl is meant to be this guy, in which case he isn't made up, just mis-located.

Yeah, that guy is made up (well, there was a thegn called Meldred who exchanged that land, but his father is not known). I guess that'll teach people not to use that website.

 

[Drachenfire]

Is Mael Coluim III English now too? :rofl: I wouldn't get too worried about it anyway, the dynasty is a modern invention. I'd just get rid of Dùn Chailleann. I realise it's there to try to create some kind of something some people here believe to be historical, but it's not, and just creates an inaccurate distinction; in any case it is written in the orthography of a different era from the spellings of the forenames.

William I of Scotland should be of "Scottish culture", what we determined long ago in the life of this project should be "Anglo-Scottish". And you are correct, most dynasty names we use for this game are latterday inventions, with most rulers simply known by their highest ranking title. Therefore, William I's dynasty name in 1187 and 1204 should be spelt as Dunkeld.

 

[Calgacus]

William I of Scotland should be of "Scottish culture", what we determined long ago in the life of this project should be "Anglo-Scottish". And you are correct, most dynasty names we use for this game are latterday inventions, with most rulers simply known by their highest ranking title. Therefore, William I's dynasty name in 1187 and 1204 should be spelt as Dunkeld.

I didn't say that, I said Dunkeld dynasty was modern invention. Many if not most of the dynasties in the game were probably contemporary.

What's the other nonsense got to do with anything btw? :wacko:

 

[pendragonlot]

Has the "Unknown String Wanted" problem been reported yet?

 

[jordarkelf]

What kind? What does the event do?

 

[pendragonlot]

I made a screenshot of the problem.

 

[Drachenfire]

Further note on Brittany for 1204

There seems to be an 'extra' "Constance" sister. Constance, Duchess of Brittany in the 1184 scenario only has five children that I can track down.

With Geoffery Plantagenet:

Eleanor the Fair Maid
Maud/Matilda (who seems to have died in her youth)
Arthur I who grew up in the French court and pleaged as a vassel to France in 1199. He and his elder sister Eleanor were abducted by King John of England and he seems to have died.

With Guy de Thours
Twin daughters Alys and Catherine.

After Arthur's "death", the correct heir would have been Eleanor of Brittany, but the French king recognized Alys as Duchess of Brittany and marrying him to Pierre de Druex.

There is an extra "Constance" as sister to Eleanor, Fair Maid of Brittany, in John's court in the 1204 scenaro. She should be renamed Maude and killed off, and a babe Catherine created as twin to Alys/Alix, and prehaps placed in Breton court or French court. Also, the character Eleanor the Fair Maid should be given a claim on Duchy of Brittany held by Alys (Alix).

 

[jordarkelf]

I made a screenshot of the problem.

You either have an old version of DVIP, or your modtext.csv got corrupted. Redownload.

 

[Drachenfire]

Per my suggestions above with Mortimer, I had initially stated to place Roger Mortimer of Wigmore in Hereford, where the Wigmore barony is located. However, because of the great importance the Mortimer family represented as Marcher lords, I feel it is more important to list him as "Count of Shrewsbury" for 1187 with a claim on Maelienydd to facilitate their eventual war. Of corse, he should be in possession of both Shrewsbury and Maelienydd in 1204. Shrewsbury is a demise of the king of England in both scenarios.

 

[pendragonlot]

You either have an old version of DVIP, or your modtext.csv got corrupted. Redownload.

I already reinstalled CK, patch 1.05, DV and the beta patch, DVIP and the DVIP Addon and as recommended the bopack.
Still have those "unknown string" errors.

 

[jordarkelf]

I already reinstalled CK, patch 1.05, DV and the beta patch, DVIP and the DVIP Addon and as recommended the bopack.
Still have those "unknown string" errors.

Did you install the entire Bopack? Then you overwrote everything...

Install DVIP, Addon, and the Bopack graphics only.

If you install the full Bopack it replaces the event files and the modtext.csv file that has the text strings for my events.

 

[pendragonlot]

Did you install the entire Bopack? Then you overwrote everything...

Install DVIP, Addon, and the Bopack graphics only.

If you install the full Bopack it replaces the event files and the modtext.csv file that has the text strings for my events.

Thanks a lot, problem solved. I'm stupid.