Deus Vult Improvement Pack - Discussion

[Drachenfire]

Please try again. You probably caught the post as I was reuploading it

//

Almost forgot how much fun this game is to actually play... I just got beaten down from Lotharingia to a count, but have all opportunity to get back at my bitter enemy

I need to get back in there and play again.

Of corse, I only play with the new Wales map.

I still lament that there is no automated way to remove the succession law to default to the male preference primogeniture. /sigh. How many years has it been? lol.

Anywhose, happy playing!

 

[unmerged(75409)]

Update uploaded (DVIP + Addon).
Incomplete changelog (not in file):

Database:
*) Revisions to Gaelic and Scottish namelists
*) Great revision of Scottish dynasties
*) Province St. Gallen now St Gallen to work around bug

Events:
*) Automated education disabled by default
*) Mongol weakening events fixed
*) Minor tweaks to realm duress and crusader events

1066:
*) Hohenstaufens moved to Fürstenberg to better fit with actual realm in 1066
*) Various Hohenstaufens added, thanks Veld
*) Billung ancestor now has his full name, thanks Veld

1187:
*) Some more characters and nicknames added from the 1204 scenario
*) Huge changes to Scotland and Russia thanks to Calgalus
*) Western Isles now are as developed as neighbouring provinces (were most backwards in world)
*) Reintroduces some Wends to Germany

1207 (addon only):
*) Removed some more crashers
*) Sanitized province tech setup
*) Minor name fixes

Wow that is nice!! Thank you for the work.

Can I insert the new files over my files from the last release (as of December) and continue playing? Or would some things get screwed up?

 

[jordarkelf]

Wow that is nice!! Thank you for the work.

Can I insert the new files over my files from the last release (as of December) and continue playing? Or would some things get screwed up?

That should not cause any problems, but you will not get any of the scenario revisions. The database and events fixes will take effect in your current game, the new/revised characters will be there the next time you start a scenario.

 

[unmerged(75409)]

Ok, thanks! Will install this weekend.

 

[Drachenfire]

Jord,

5 minor things for next update:

* I think you can remove Bleddyn ap Cyfyn's claim on the Duchy of Deheubarth, it was ment to cause a war between the two. I think that instead a rivalry between the two will suffice now.

*Also, Gruffydd ap Cynan Aberffraw should also have a friendship with Rhys Dinefwr in the court of Deheubarth.

*the Capital of the Duchy of Deheubarth should be Ystrad Tywi, but it is in Ceredigion in 1066.

*Gwent should be forest, and Morgannwg should be hills

* Should we prehaps marry Agnes d'Aquitaine to Alfonso de Leon, King of Leon (in game as Alfonso Jemenez, king of Leon). Historically, she is married to Alfonso to solidify an alliance between Leon and Aquitaine.

*Should we not break up the Jimenez to the various realms the occupied? I can only find reference to Alfonso de Leon, or Sancho de Castille, or Sancho de Navarra, or Sancho d'Aragon, or Garcia de Galacia.

I already do this in my own games, but do not remember the adjudication on this for DVIP.

 

[jordarkelf]

Jord,

5 minor things for next update:

* I think you can remove Bleddyn ap Cyfyn's claim on the Duchy of Deheubarth, it was ment to cause a war between the two. I think that instead a rivalry between the two will suffice now.

Done!

*Also, Gruffydd ap Cynan Aberffraw should also have a friendship with Rhys Dinefwr in the court of Deheubarth.

Rhys son of Owain, or Rhys son of Tewdwr?

*the Capital of the Duchy of Deheubarth should be Ystrad Tywi, but it is in Ceredigion in 1066.

*Gwent should be forest, and Morgannwg should be hills

DVIP Wales (mapmod) hasn't been updated yet, I screwed up my files while further modding the map
If I can track down a good copy I'll update it.

* Should we prehaps marry Agnes d'Aquitaine to Alfonso de Leon, King of Leon (in game as Alfonso Jemenez, king of Leon). Historically, she is married to Alfonso to solidify an alliance between Leon and Aquitaine.

They weren't married until 1069, and in 1066 were not betrothed. I only mark characters as married before the actual date if they were already betrothed (engaged) at scenario start.

*Should we not break up the Jimenez to the various realms the occupied? I can only find reference to Alfonso de Leon, or Sancho de Castille, or Sancho de Navarra, or Sancho d'Aragon, or Garcia de Galacia.

I already do this in my own games, but do not remember the adjudication on this for DVIP.

The problem with this is that it will be instant gameover if any of the Jimenezes dies and his brother or cousin takes over, whereas now you can keep on playing.
Keeping them in the same dynasty also makes it more obvious who is family, for players who love assassinations...

 

[Drachenfire]

I just got an unknown string wanted with an education event, with it seems Gruffydd ap Cynan deciding that martial education is just not for him.

 

[jordarkelf]

Can you give a little more info? Was one of the choices to settle for a misguided warrior, or was it just allowing a swap to religious or court?

//Make sure automated_courtier_education_events.txt is not enabled in db\events.txt.
It should not be used unless you manually made the required changes to character_development_events.txt and bastard_events.txt according to Jinnai''s instructions.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

I would like to suggest a small alteration for the 1187-scenario.

Currently the king of Bulgaria, Ivan Asen and his brothers have the Bulgarian culture. But at least Ivan and Petar were most likely Vlachs. The 2nd Bulgarian Empire was also known as the Vlacho-Bulgarian Empire. And both these two books

The Late Medieval Balkans. A critical survey from the late 12th century to the Ottoman Empire by John V. Fine and
The Cambridge History of the Byzantine Empire refer to them as Vlachs. The sources don't say anything about Kaloyan, but we do know that the 2nd Bulgarian Empire consisted of people of Vlach, Bulgarian and Cuman descent. In my own mod I have given Ioan (=Ivan) and Peter (=Petar) the Vlach culture and Kaloyan has Bulgarian culture.

The 3 brothers were also not very friendly to each other, so making them rivals would be a good addition.

These two sites also speak of a possible Vlach/Wallachian descent.

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/BULGARIA.htm#_Toc204256798

http://genealogy.euweb.cz/balkan/balkan9.html#P2

Bulgaria should also be allied to Alexios Branas, the Prince of Macedonia

 

[jordarkelf]

Hmm, I know I had a reason not to set them as such... I think Riddermark was the one who came up with some very good reasons why they were definitely not Vlach (Wallachian). I'll try to find the conversation logs.

Another probable Vlach is future regicide Ivanko-Alexios (according to Acominatus at least).

Good call on the alliance, I read on that when I was looking into 12th Century ERE history. Unfortunately it probably won't last long, as Macedonia starts as a Roman vassal.

That reminds me... I'm increasingly more open to renaming 'Empire of Byzantium' to 'Empire of the Romans', 'Empire of East Rome', or 'Empire of the Greeks'... nobody ever used the term Byzantium to refer to the ERE while it lasted.

//Edit: Vlach does seem to fit better, it's what their contemparies called them.

//Edit2: the link in my signature DVIP update will have the current WIP changelog over at Terranova.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Good call on the alliance, I read on that when I was looking into 12th Century ERE history. Unfortunately it probably won't last long, as Macedonia starts as a Roman vassal.

Alexios Branas starts with very low loyalty and usually rebels against the emperor and that mos of the time is the end of him. Maybe with Bulgaria as his ally he has some more chance.

 

[unmerged(75409)]

That reminds me... I'm increasingly more open to renaming 'Empire of Byzantium' to 'Empire of the Romans', 'Empire of East Rome', or 'Empire of the Greeks'... nobody ever used the term Byzantium to refer to the ERE while it lasted.

I don't know... for me, the game is more like playing a history book medieval game than actually playing a first person medieval immersion game, if you know what I mean. So I don't mind anachronistic titles as long as they are from actual history books. I mean, there are other titles as well which are anachronistic, such as the King of France who was AFAIK actually called King of the Franks (rex francorum), or the Holy Roman Emperor who in the game is just King of Germany (instead of rex germanorum), that is not what contemporaries called them. Same for princely titles inside the eastern Empire or in Russia. Mostly anachronistic, designed to be played from a modern point of view and aimed at immersion in a history book atmosphere.

I think the game atmosphere would suffer if "proper" contemporary titles were introduced. Just like (IMHO) the attempts of the VIP crowd at Victoria to give oriental and African countries/provinces their "proper", self-designated names (Devlet-i-Osmaniyye instead of Ottoman Empire and so on) have not actually improved the atmosphere, rather they make the mod look like a grad school dropout's attempt to show off knowledge of foreign languages.

 

[jordarkelf]

Oh, I would never want it to be called 'Basileion ton Romaion'. Using contemporary names -- maybe. Using local names -- nope.
I will keep it out of the DVIP though, just have it in my own game.

Oh, and technically speaking the term 'King of Germany' is correct: the HRE was only the emperor after he was crowned, before that he was "just" the 'King of the Germans'.
Terms like 'King of the Germans'/'of Germany' or 'King of the Franks'/'of France' are equivalents.

 

[unmerged(75409)]

Oh, I would never want it to be called 'Basileion ton Romaion'. Using contemporary names -- maybe. Using local names -- nope.
I will keep it out of the DVIP though, just have it in my own game.

Oh, and technically speaking the term 'King of Germany' is correct: the HRE was only the emperor after he was crowned, before that he was "just" the 'King of the Germans'.
Terms like 'King of the Germans'/'of Germany' or 'King of the Franks'/'of France' are equivalents.

Try telling that Kaiser Wilhelm I... he almost didn't show up for the proclamation at Versailles, because he wanted to be "Kaiser of Germany" instead of "German Emperor".

BTW I think "Emperor of the Romans" would be a good title... if that could show up... Emperor of the Roman Empire not so much IMO it somehow doesn't sound right.

 

[Drachenfire]

Jord,

My most recent mode is

1. CK DV
2. Most recent Improverment Pack
3. More Kingdoms
4. Wales Map mode


Is this not the proper proceedure?


______________________________

Re: Agnes d'Aquitaine= point taken

re: the Jimenez dynasty= I understand your point. But personally I thoroughly enjoy watching which branch becomes master of Spain, and it is easier to watch this over time by giving each dynasty a last name specific for the realm they ruled. Would you be averse to adding this to the More Kingdoms mode? If not I understand, Ill continue to edit them in my own game.


_______________________________

Bleddyn should be friends with the Duke of Mercia and Duke of Northumbria, to reinforce their alliance, also Rhiwallon Count of Powys should be friends with Edric the Wild Count of Shrewsbury and Hereford.

 

[Riddermark]

As far as the origin of Petar and Asen, there are literally tons of discussions and arguments out there, not only in bulgarian forums and websites but as a whole. It's a really complicated matter and if you decide to make your mind on just 1-2 western sources or even worse Byzantine then I can't really accept your view as serious.

Too many factors and too many "IFs" there to call a concrete decision, after all if that info was something certain it would've been a fact in the history books. I have no desire to argue or waste my time delving into a very disputabe and de facto speculative topic.

 

[jordarkelf]

Hi D,

DVIP Wales (mapmod) has not been updated. When I get around to updating it, the proper install order will be:
1) Deus Vult
2) Deus Vult beta patch
3) DVIP mapmod

The mapmod has the addon included, and replaces the normal DVIP.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

As far as the origin of Petar and Asen, there are literally tons of discussions and arguments out there, not only in bulgarian forums and websites but as a whole. It's a really complicated matter and if you decide to make your mind on just 1-2 western sources or even worse Byzantine then I can't really accept your view as serious.

Too many factors and too many "IFs" there to call a concrete decision, after all if that info was something certain it would've been a fact in the history books. I have no desire to argue or waste my time delving into a very disputabe and de facto speculative topic.

I think it is save the say that the only ones who dispute this are Bulgarian sources. In the books I mentioned it is stated as facts.

 

[jordarkelf]

As far as the origin of Petar and Asen, there are literally tons of discussions and arguments out there, not only in bulgarian forums and websites but as a whole. It's a really complicated matter and if you decide to make your mind on just 1-2 western sources or even worse Byzantine then I can't really accept your view as serious.

It's not just western sources, unless you count Russians and Romans (Byzantines) as western.
It is hard to say exactly when people began to refer to themselves as Vlachs, but it's certain that at least part of the nobility of Bulgaria/Wallachia self-identified as Vlach, not Bulgar. And these include (according to Acominatus and other sources east of Germany/Austria) parts of the Asen dynasty.

 

[Dagfinn]

I got an strange event: The pope wanted me to go on a crusade and declare war against the Duke of Transylvania, a catholic ruler! :wacko:

The current target for the crusade is Atiocheia wich is a part of Transylvania. Antiocheia is orthodox ATM.

Im playing with DVIP and nothing else, so I guess I should ask here first