Deus Vult - A Megathread (Read OP Before Posting)

[Surimi]

You can't be serious...
Crusaders used "Deus Vult" and other similarly worded phrases during the Crusades, in the game of Crusader Kings.

Again, crusaders did not use the term "crusader" or "crusades".

The phrase Deus Vult appears in Robert the Monk's account of the Council of Clermont. There are four other accounts of the Council of Clermont, none of which mention Urban II or the crowd ever using the phrase. It's likely that it was made up by Robert after the first crusade.

Now, this doesn't rule out the phrase being used as a battle cry in subsequent crusades (although again, they didn't call them "crusades", that term didn't exist yet). Heck, maybe Robert was correct and it was said by Urban II, but the simple fact is that it's not terribly important. It's an irrelevant historical detail which may, even in the 11th century, have been nothing more than a piece of propaganda.

The idea that Deus vult is somehow necessary to accurately repesent the crusades is incredibly silly, and actually a good example of why the memeification of certain phrases and concepts distorts real history.

- do fact, that muslims have problems with jewish radicals decisions "Create Israel" and "Build the Third Temple" should be disabled in game? Because this is similar logic.

Incest, genocides, cannibalism, mass castration etc. are good but "DV" are global problem and risk of world collapse, because few european alt-right use this as meme.... C'mon!

I'd suggest reading my first post (it's probably a few pages back now) because I think you're missing the point. I'm not "offended" by the crusades. I actually find them kind of fascinating. What I'm "offended" by is the thought of having to share a community with people who advocate or carry out real acts of violence and prejudice against me and my community in the present. Israel is very complex, it means different things to different people, Deus vult doesn't really mean anything except the fact that it's a far right meme now.

I don't think the presence or absence of the phrase Deus vult actually changes anything. It does not impact at all on the ability to accurately represent the crusades, particularly since its own historicity as a phrase is rather questionable. However, choosing not to include it (which is not the same as removing something, by the way - removing something implies it was in to begin with) is a symbol. It's the actual act of dissociating from the far right.

I think that's a good thing. No ordinary person is actually affected by whether or not a word appears in a game, but people on the far right don't deserve to believe that Paradox as a company supports them or has any sympathy with them.

 

[kiz038]

Again, where's the proof? I've never seen it being sad that ALL people who use the OK symbol are nazis. What was said was that there are internet nazis who are trying to use the hand symbol to identify each other. That's an important distinction which you're glossing over.

Where's the proof it is used among Nazis to identify themselves? Because people you call "Nazis" use it to be smug or sarcastic?
Assuming that's true, then who decides who is a Nazi based on using this insanely common and innocuous hand sign?

Here's a man who was FIRED for using the symbol because the people who took the photo are just as crazed about SECRET NAZI HAND SIGNALS as you: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...spicable-me-actor-after-ok-symbol/3791483002/
He's a Nazi now, and he has no job. This is "extreme progressivism."

 

[Volphied]

Again, crusaders did not use the term "crusader" or "crusades".

The phrase Deus Vult appears in Robert the Monk's account of the Council of Clermont. There are four other accounts of the Council of Clermont, none of which mention Urban II or the crowd ever using the phrase. It's likely that it was made up by Robert after the first crusade.

Now, this doesn't rule out the phrase being used as a battle cry in subsequent crusades (although again, they didn't call them "crusades", that term didn't exist yet). Heck, maybe Robert was correct and it was said by Urban II, but the simple fact is that it's not terribly important. It's an irrelevant historical detail which may, even in the 11th century, have been nothing more than a piece of propaganda.

The idea that Deus vult is somehow necessary to accurately repesent the crusades is incredibly silly, and actually a good example of why the memeification of certain phrases and concepts distorts real history.



I'd suggest reading my first post (it's probably a few pages back now) because I think you're missing the point. I'm not "offended" by the crusades. I actually find them kind of fascinating. What I'm "offended" by is the thought of having to share a community with people who advocate or carry out real acts of violence and prejudice against me and my community in the present. Israel is very complex, it means different things to different people, Deus vult doesn't really mean anything except the fact that it's a far right meme now.

I don't think the presence or absence of the phrase Deus vult actually changes anything. It does not impact at all on the ability to accurately represent the crusades, particularly since its own historicity as a phrase is rather questionable. However, choosing not to include it (which is not the same as removing something, by the way - removing something implies it was in to begin with) is a symbol. It's the actual act of dissociating from the far right.

I think that's a good thing. No ordinary person is actually affected by whether or not a word appears in a game or not, but people on the far right don't deserve to believe that Paradox as a company supports them or has any sympathy with them.

I just wanted to say, I appreciate you bringing reason and calm facts to this hysterical and overreacting thread. Kudos to you.

 

[TheAtreides84]

And it's just a coincidence that the "neutral point of view" is basically YOUR view.

Whatever, I've already posted quotations of Lega Nord politicians calling for murder of non-europeans. Which you ignored.

Where? I don't remember it ever happening, and if it happened I assure you 100% the party dissociated from it, because that's what they do when someone of their guys makes for bad PR. Mind, I'm not saying they aren't somewhat racist, but there is a significant difference between "I kinda don't like foreigners" and "I support the Final Solution"

 

[Carmichael]

What I'm "offended" by is the thought of having to share a community with people who advocate or carry out real acts of violence and prejudice against me and my community in the present. Israel is very complex, it means different things to different people, Deus vult doesn't really mean anything except the fact that it's a far right meme now.

I don't think the presence or absence of the phrase Deus vult actually changes anything. It does not impact at all on the ability to accurately represent the crusades, particularly since its own historicity as a phrase is rather questionable. However, choosing not to include it (which is not the same as removing something, by the way - removing something implies it was in to begin with) is a symbol. It's the actual act of dissociating from the far right.

I think that's a good thing. No ordinary person is actually affected by whether or not a word appears in a game or not, but people on the far right don't deserve to believe that Paradox as a company supports them or has any sympathy with them.

Glad to see you read my answer to you....
Also, I'm genuinely curious, could you link to any instance where people in the Paradox Community have directly used Deus Vult to "advocate or carry out real acts of violence and prejudice against you and your community in the present" that doesn't already violate the ToS?

 

[gloomseeker]

I think we should fight for the use of these expressions instead of letting them be used by fascists who are turning them into internet memes and tools for propaganda.

With all the rage and controversy it's hard to tell between people who genuinely care about historic references and people who are just using history to further some current political agenda that is completely disconnected from the historical event or phrase they are trying to subvert but it's the same thing with every game featuring WW2. You always have a bunch of idiots who will get sexually aroused every time they see some Nazi regalia. That's probably not a reason for censorship.

It would probably be a better idea to educate people about history.

The same history that disingenuous extremists from all over the world are trying to subvert in order to grant themselves some sort of baseless sense of legitimacy.

With the proper knowledge and historical background it should be possible to debunk those claims and show those extremists for the frauds they actually are.

 

[Xetfield]

It's funny for you to mention that "critique must be freed from emotions" since right now it's you who's having an emotional reaction to criticism.

And that also applies to everyone losing their mind over the possibility of not including TWO WORDS.

How exactly did you come to such a conclusion?

There is more than banning two words, how can't you get it? This move is hypocritical and I proved it with achievement added from last year. Also it opens up a dangerous opportunity to water down things even more.

 

[Volphied]

Where's the proof it is used among Nazis to identify themselves? Because people you call "Nazis" use it to be smug or sarcastic?
Assuming that's true, then who decides who is a Nazi based on using this insanely common and innocuous hand sign?

Here's a man who was FIRED for using the symbol because the people who took the photo are just as crazed about SECRET NAZI HAND SIGNALS as you: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...spicable-me-actor-after-ok-symbol/3791483002/
He's a Nazi now, and he has no job. This is "extreme progressivism."

Really? Who puts the OK symbol upside down? That's not the same thing. Context is important.

 

[Andrzej I]

Admittedly from pages and pages back...

the political views of Paradox players are mostly moderate left to Trump supporters, anything beyond that is a minuscule portion of the player base.

The Red Paradoxians would care to disagree with you, having double the number of the next political group on the forum. Admittedly, not a great metric, since groups are largely pointless and unused, but still: 450-ish members.

Anyhow, to get back to the topic at hand, for my part, I await hearing a more official word from Paradox with guarded patience, be it specifically upon this topic of "Deus Vult" or whenever they release more information about how they will be approaching some of these sensitive topics the journalist brought up. If it is left at "Deus Vult", then so be it. A shame to have it censored, but I could understand the reasoning, at least. If "Deus Vult" is merely the "tip of the iceberg" as the journalist hopes, though, and we see more revisionism to suit modern sensibilities, glorifying some cultures and beliefs over others, warping historical realities, then, well... I feel the outrage would be justified. At this point though, especially with what little official response we have seen, I think it is too early to jump to full outrage just yet.

 

[WestwardExpansion]

Several Lega Nord members speak murderously against illegal immigrants (Bossi suggested in 2003 opening fire on the boats of illegal immigrants from Africa, whom he described as bingo-bongos; and Giancarlo Gentilini labeled foreigners as "immigrant slackers", saying that "we should dress them up like hares and bang-bang-bang").

It's not "psychosis" to point out that this is murderous rhetoric.

Italy should set whatever punishment for human trafficking it sees fit to, seems a very heinous crime to me. The colorful language you're on about is certainly distracting but no reason to not maintain a border. I doubt this is in the League's platform anyway, is it?

 

[kiz038]

Really? Who puts the OK symbol upside down? That's not the same thing.

Listen to yourself... "b-but he had it UPSIDE-DOWN!!! who else would do that but a NAZI!!!"

E X T R E M E
P R O G R E S S I V I S M

 

[LazyTitan0514]

Really? Who puts the OK symbol upside down? That's not the same thing. Context is important.

Kids in high school and middle school put the ok symbol upside down and if you look you get punched they’re not nazis just Kids playing games

 

[Steventesco213]

Not buying the game if Swedes don't stop being sissies

 

[Volphied]

Listen to yourself... "b-but he had it UPSIDE-DOWN!!! who else would do that but a NAZI!!!"

E X T R E M E
P R O G R E S S I V I S M

I didn't say that. You're putting words into my mouth.

Here's what the ADL actually says. It's far from the "ALL OK SYMBOLS ARE NAZI" that you're imagining:

Has the simple thumb-and-forefinger 'OK' hand gesture become a common white supremacist hand sign? Not quite, but it has become a popular gesture used by people across several segments of the right and far right—including some actual white supremacists—who generally use it to trigger reactions. It is important to realize that the “OK” gesture is a nearly universal hand gesture and most usage of it is completely innocuous. Even when used as described here, the fact that white supremacists, the alt lite and many Trump supporters all use the symbol means that one cannot assume that anyone who poses with such a gesture is intending or exhibiting an association with white supremacy. Only if the gesture occurs in context with other clear indicators of white supremacy can one draw that conclusion.

 

[TheRealCrusaderKing]

I didn't say that. You're putting words into my mouth.

Here's what the ADL actually says. It's far from the "ALL OK SYBOLS ARE NAZI" that you're imagining:

Has the simple thumb-and-forefinger 'OK' hand gesture become a common white supremacist hand sign? Not quite, but it has become a popular gesture used by people across several segments of the right and far right—including some actual white supremacists—who generally use it to trigger reactions. [...] Only if the gesture occurs in context with other clear indicators of white supremacy can one draw that conclusion.

tfw a 4chan prank goes too far.

 

[WestwardExpansion]

So glad there are organizations like the ADL to tell me what to think.

 

[kiz038]

Only if the gesture occurs in context with other clear indicators of white supremacy can one draw that conclusion.

Which indicators did you spot then? You had a problem with it being upside-down, so tell us why you found it to be problematic.

 

[Had a dad]

dont have time to clean everything up in this thread ring now so this topic is closed for now, and anyone opening a new thread on the subject will be infracted