Deus Vult - A Megathread (Read OP Before Posting)

[Mr. Capiatlist]

This is the Deus Vult Megathread. Here are some ground rules:

• Normal ToS rules apply, might be more heavily enforced
  • This includes but is not limited to: racism, sexism, trolling, insults, foul language...
• No Nazi/Alt-Right Apologia
• Users are limited to 20 posts. After you hit 20 posts you will be removed (unable to post) from the thread
  • Regardless of your stance
  • This is to make sure that the thread is lively without becoming dominated by the loudest or most active users
  • This might be applied preemptively if a particular user is found to be causing a lot of trouble
  • Sock puppets will be banned and their puppet masters may be subject to infractions up to and including forum-wide bans
• Toxicity applies as usual
• Whataboutisms
• Further Deus Vult threads will be infracted and closed

We thank you for your cooperation.

 

[Heiliges Thüringens Reich]

OK, let's start this: why? Could you please bring the game devs/producers here and let them explain by A+B why they opted for that line of thinking?
And if modders will be free to add 'Deus Vult' wherever they want?

 

[Mr. Capiatlist]

OK, let's start this: why? Could you please bring the game devs/producers here and let them explain by A+B why they opted for that line of thinking?
And if modders will be free to add 'Deus Vult' wherever they want?

Given that the con is currently ongoing: probably not right away. But I will prod who I can to perhaps get an official post.

 

[EldarPanic]

OK, let's start this: why? Could you please bring the game devs/producers here and let them explain by A+B why they opted for that line of thinking?
And if modders will be free to add 'Deus Vult' wherever they want?

This...

 

[Biruitorul]

I'm more perplexed why someone shouts it in Holy Fury (very cool btw) which came out recently and they decided to not have it in the next game... Did something happen I'm not aware of?

Anyway soundmods usually don't change your checksum so you could probably still make a mod screaming Deus Vult just to be annoying about it and still play ironman

 

[Sielgaudys]

It was a real saying/phrase so I don't support the removal of it. Will Allahu Akbar for Jihads will be replaced/removed too?

Also, it was kind of a terrible choice from marketing perspective, I mean you will just make portion of player base angry for a game that already has high expectations due to ck II.

 

[Carmichael]

Ok then I'll put my thought.

Words are what people do of them.

We are told that Deus Vult is a rally cry for neo-nazies. Where? I would damn like to know.

We as a community have used Deus Vult for years. For marketting reason, it was the title of an expansion of CKI, it was said by a voice over in Holy Fury. Hell Crusader Kings as a concept could be summarized by these words as we are prey to God's will in thus game. As a meme, how many Papacy players have used it/been cheered by it in the Dev Clashes?

Are the words of some skinhead half the globe over more important than of us the community? We gave some new meaning to these words just like the neo-nazies, why is our meaning inferior to theirs? Terrorist have used Allahu Ackbar for years yet it is not banned because we know that it's meaning is different from what their usage of it is.

That is all I have to say.

 

[Mr. Capiatlist]

Ok then I'll put my thought.

Words are what people do of them.

We are told that Deus Vult is a rally cry for neo-nazies. Where? I would damn like to know.

We as a community have used Deus Vult for years. For marketting reason, it was the title of an expansion of CKI, it was said by a voice over in Holy Fury. Hell Crusader Kings as a concept could be summarized by these words as we are prey to God's will in thus game. As a meme, how many Papacy players have used it/been cheered by it in the Dev Clashes?

Are the words of some skinhead half the globe over more important than of us the community? We gave some new meaning to these words just like the neo-nazies, why is our meaning inferior to theirs?

That is all I have to say.

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/...s-the-new-zealand-shooter-used-to-communicate

There are also numerous references throughout the manifesto to the religious wars of the Middle Ages, such as the Crusaders, and Pope Urban II, who urged Christians to go to war against Muslims in 1095 with the words “Deus vult,” which is Latin for “God wills it.” “Deus vult” were also words chanted by white supremacists as they marched through Charlottesville during the violent Unite the Right rally in August 2017.

 

[Drukaris]

in a game that contains

incest
infanticide
genocide
religiously motivated mass murder
and eugenics

"Deus Vult" is where we draw the line?

c'mon paradox - don't let the alt-right ruin our fun!

 

[AtleNO]

The issue, in my opinion, is that this very topic shouldn't really be a "thing" in the first place. Why is the word "deus vult" considered "offensive"?

If we're to go down this line, why don't we mark the ck3 intro video portraying a baby about to be killed by a snake as "offensive"? Do you not find there's a double standard at play here? The reason it's not offensive is because it's fiction, it's a game, we're all aware of this so marking certain historically tied words as "offensive" in a historic-set game seems redundant and frankly pro-censorship.

I'd also say it's quite insulting to your playerbase, you're effectively stating "You do not know the difference between words in a fictional game and actions committed real-life". Do you honestly believe you're promoting vile acts by including a "offensive" word in your game? If so, you should probably get rid of murder mechanics, incest, wars in general, backstabbing, crusades and pretty much all the rest, unless you abide by a double standard here.

 

[Racast]

Here are the main three of my many, may concerns:

1. INEFFICIENCT: The first thing mods will do will be bringing back the phrase, and it will be Ironman compatible and all given that it'll only alter text within the game. It's the kind of thing that's beyond Paradox's control. That's why this decision does nothing but cater to paranoid political media while displeasing the playerbase who cares for historical accuracy.
2. DISPROPORTIONATE: Supressing the 'DEUS VULT' phrase from a game intended to tackle historical content is much like ordering the police to raid a history museum and take off all their swastikas. You don't need to punish a game for what people do outside of it. We're only playing the game to have fun, and to immerse ourselves in the Middle Ages.
3. PRECEDENTS: This policy instills worry in the entire community. It's not only about "eh Deus Vult who cares". It's about "they're doing this now, but what's next?" that brings to us all the fear of the game itself, or next titles, being drastically impacted in their historical accuracy due to the works of trolls who appropriate elements of history and turn them into political munition.

 

[MarteVermelho]

Player: I will project my political sensibilities relating race, culture and violence on this historical warcry.

Game Company: We will not include such warcry given it's heavy political connotation.

Player: Absurd! You are reinterpreting the past in light of modern politics!!! It's the political correctness dictatorship!!!

Me: ......

 

[MrNewVegas]

So I'm pretty sure that the classic tale of people yelling Deus Vult to Urban was made up by some bloke re-writing the accounts of the fellow who was actually there.
That being said I find it hard to believe that in a game that is seemingly more focused on roleplaying they have decided to...allow me to roleplay as a crusader who only says "Gold Wills It" in english, rather than latin?

 

[Biruitorul]

1. INEFFICIENCT: The first thing mods will do will be bringing back the phrase, and it will be Ironman compatible and all given that it'll only alter text within the game. It's the kind of thing that's beyond Paradox's control.
2. DISPROPORTIONATE: Supressing the 'DEUS VULT' phrase from a game intended to tackle historical content is much like ordering the police to raid a history museum and take off all their swastikas. You don't need to punish a game for what people do outside of it.
3. PRECEDENTS: This policy instills worry in the entire community. It's not only about "eh Deus Vult who cares". It's about "they're doing this now, but what's next?" that brings to us all the fear of the game itself, or next titles, being drastically impacted in their historical accuracy due to the works of trolls who appropriate elements of history and turn them into political munition.

This + grand strategy is a kind of game that doesn't really attract normies that would appreciate woke gestures. If anything the types that eitherplay this either don't care or are actually peeved by it.

Peeved may be an understatement though cause we've seen how negatively people have reacted to games when they felt their history was under siege by modern values--Battlefield V, Rome II females, etc.

 

[noblehunter]

1. INEFFICIENCT: The first thing mods will do will be bringing back the phrase, and it will be Ironman compatible and all given that it'll only alter text within the game. It's the kind of thing that's beyond Paradox's control.
2. DISPROPORTIONATE: Supressing the 'DEUS VULT' phrase from a game intended to tackle historical content is much like ordering the police to raid a history museum and take off all their swastikas. You don't need to punish a game for what people do outside of it.
3. PRECEDENTS: This policy instills worry in the entire community. It's not only about "eh Deus Vult who cares". It's about "they're doing this now, but what's next?" that brings to us all the fear of the game itself, or next titles, being drastically impacted in their historical accuracy due to the works of trolls who appropriate elements of history and turn them into political munition.

I'm not sure failing to include a text string can be considered to be a disproportionate response. Deus Vult had not mechanical effect in CK or CK2. There's no reason to believe its absence will have an effect on CK3.

As for the slippery slope argument, did not including swastikas from HOI lead to major gameplay elements removed? This is something Paradox has done before, to meet legal requirements no less, and the games have not suffered for it.

 

[Racast]

Player: I will project my political sensibilities on race, culture and violence on this historical warcry.

Game Company: We will not include such warcry given it's heavy political connotation.

Player: Absurd! You are reinterpreting the past in light of modern politics!!! It's the political correctness dictatorship!!!

Me: ......

So are we surrendering history itself to the insanity of some radicals? That's it? I really think that by doing this we are bringing more harm than good - not only you give recognition to people who do drastic things seeking it but let them turn historical elements into ideology. Deus Vult should be kept as a means of resistance against fascists rather than being given away to them.

I'm not sure failing to include a text string can be considered to be a disproportionate response. Deus Vult had not mechanical effect in CK or CK2. There's no reason to believe its absence will have an effect on CK3.

As for the slippery slope argument, did not including swastikas from HOI lead to major gameplay elements removed? This is something Paradox has done before, to meet legal requirements no less, and the games have not suffered for it.

Deus Vult's absense has a major impact in immersion, and CK2 is all about immersion, much more than all the other Paradox titles. It's unlike HOI4, where the community plays mostly for that sweet strategy MP.

Speaking of HOI4, the exclusion of swastikas had to do with a legal element. Deus Vult, by no means, has any legal issues so far in the west.

 

[Heiliges Thüringens Reich]

Player: I will project my political sensibilities on race, culture and violence on this historical warcry.

Game Company: We will not include such warcry given it's heavy political connotation.

Player: Absurd! You are reinterpreting the past in light of modern politics!!! It's the political correctness dictatorship!!!

Me: ......

Who is this 'Player' entity you used as your example? And are those 2 'Player' the same kind of people? What are the numbers of the first 'Player' - is (s)he a significant part of the playerbase to make Paradox even think about him/her?

This seems to imply that anyone opposing the removal of 'Deus Vult' is the kind of player that "project his/her political sensibilities on race, culture and violence on this historical warcry". I'm certainly not one of the later.

 

[DominusNovus]

I have thoughts to add about the topic itself when I have a full keyboard in front of me, but I want to use one of my 20 posts on a meta commentary:

The media in general and gaming in particular is embroiled in all sorts of controversy regarding censorship, and Paradox already put a target on their back with the Stellaris mobile game. And now they’ve decided to jump into the fray further over something that is ultimately unimportant but sure to upset people. Anyone that sees the phrase deus vult in context that gets offended is countered by dozens that are offended it won’t be there.

Who is in charge of PR at Paradox? Their customer base is fanatical about history (dual consuls...), so why constantly poke the bear like that? You’ve taken a stance on something that wouldn’t be noticed otherwise, and drawn nothing but bad publicity to yourselves. Its a low (no) reward, high cost decision.

 

[Nuklearius]

PRECEDENTS: This policy instills worry in the entire community. It's not only about "eh Deus Vult who cares". It's about "they're doing this now, but what's next?" that brings to us all the fear of the game itself, or next titles, being drastically impacted in their historical accuracy due to the works of trolls who appropriate elements of history and turn them into political munition.

100x times this. It's the direction that is worrying here. Getting rid of seemingly harmless phrases or content and deleting "offensive" mods is just the wrong direction. And for whom are they doing this? Not for the community, that's for sure. It seems like pre-emptive self censoring for people who will never play this game.

Paradox is heading the wrong way.

 

[C.N.]

OK, let's start this: why? Could you please bring the game devs/producers here and let them explain by A+B why they opted for that line of thinking?
And if modders will be free to add 'Deus Vult' wherever they want?

Isn't it obvious, certain elements of the games media would start a witch hunt if they hadn't removed it.