Determinism in EUIV

[Dafool]

That could be turned around, you know. You can't objectively say that it's flawless.

And yet I see no one saying "Look at this flawless system which will surely be perfect". I do however see someone saying "Look at this flawed system which will surely be awful".

And this is a discussion forum where paradox fans give feedback on an upcoming game advertised by the devs. It's not forum of 'yesmen' or unconditional flatterers.

And it needn't be. But it also shouldn't be the home of continual griping over the same issue that has been dismissed by the devs. You in particular have been beating that dead horse from the very beginning.

Answer.

So you want PI to preemptively implement measures to change their own system because you have complaints that they don't agree with?

That's just like, your opinion... man.

And also the opinion of the devs...

 

[unmerged(63836)]

So you want PI to preemptively implement measures to change their own system because you have complaints that they don't agree with?

How dare I! Please - apply to the role of official forum censor, so that only posts containing compliments can go through.

Jeez

 

[Evie HJ]

That could be turned around, you know. You can't objectively say that it's flawless.

Indeed.

Which is kind of my point. Both sides (myself included) have made a bad habit of saying how the game should be, and what is bad for the game. These pretend to be objective statement, but we can't objectively say the mechanism is bad for the game, nor can we say what the game really need. We can say what we'd like to see (and you have phrased it that way a number of times), we can say what we like or don't like about the designs, but when we start speaking in pretend objective terms, it seems to me that we're just going to get on each other nerves a lot more quickly (and then get a lot less civil).

 

[Vishaing]

I'm pretty sure most people assume the "I Think" is implied by statements that are obviously subjective, unless you start arguments about the nature of Subjectivity whenever someone says "Man, It's Cold out Here!"

 

[unmerged(63836)]

Indeed.

Which is kind of my point. Both sides (myself included) have made a bad habit of saying how the game should be, and what is bad for the game. These pretend to be objective statement, but we can't objectively say the mechanism is bad for the game, nor can we say what the game really need. We can say what we'd like to see (and you have phrased it that way a number of times), we can say what we like or don't like about the designs, but when we start speaking in pretend objective terms, it seems to me that we're just going to get on each other nerves a lot more quickly (and then get a lot less civil).

Agreed.

BTW - In my humble opinion everything besides NIs presented so far is very promising improvement, and I'm not saying that EU4 would be bad. Clearly it would be good, and better than EU3. But I just don't like some features. Some fans don't like determinism, others don't like monarch points for example, but I think that first group is more numerous. Thus, I think that suggesting to the devs to make this stuff toggle-able or fully moddable is not unreasonable.

 

[Eh up me duck]

Wait, have you even played EU3?

 

[Evie HJ]

Well. I think how reasonable it is depend largely on how difficult it is to program alternatives. For example, would you just switch out national ideas altogether (so you only get the generic ideas you chose, no country get bonus ideas every three ideas)? That might be relatively easy to program. But some fans may then protest that they're being unfairly penalized for playing without the fixed ideas (much as fans who wanted historical rulers were unhappy that they lost royal marriages), and without the national ambitions.

The idea of making it fully moddable, is, I think, a little excessive, at least if by fully moddable you mean the ability to mod additional triggers and whatnot to the ideas. This...is unlikely to happen for several reasons: you'd need to program several possibilities that the game just wouldn't use in its vanilla form just to allow that sort of modding.

Vishaing - you'd think people would assume that, but in my experience, lots of people don't.

 

[Captain Gars]

For example, would you just switch out national ideas altogether (so you only get the generic ideas you chose, no country get bonus ideas every three ideas)? That might be relatively easy to program.

The country specific idea groups can be easily deleted from a plain text file.

 

[DarkieBabZ]

So an entire system needs to be redesigned because a small amount of the text might bug a small amount of players? As I said, this is a very small and highly irrelevant complaint. We've had these kinds of things in almost every PI game, and yet it was never so terribly awful as to ruin the game. If you're unhappy with this, then there is always plenty of modding potential to fix it. PI is not obligated to cater to your personal preferences, especially given that they've dismissed your complaints personally.

You know thats not the problem by now Dafool! we have discussed this endlessly and you even agree on some of my points, so don't turn it down to a problem of "immersion breaking" thats just another bad outcome from the design, but thats hardly a problem compared to the deterministic paths and outcomes the system might produce (I am saying might since we can't know yet)

We've seen some of the nation specific NI's. We've seen little of generic NI's. We've seen little of the generic idea groups. We've heard next to nothing about game balance with these ideas. We're far from having all the information yet. And still you think you have all the info and are now entitled to call the game "flawed". I'm telling you that your specific complaint, that NI's might be too "deterministic" (a term I would not use here), is not only a very minor one, but one that will likely garner any reaction from PI because it doesn't affect the game as a whole, especially at such an early stage.

I can't speak for others! but personal I don't see it as a flaw, I am worried about the mechanism looking deterministic in nature! should a Paradox dev write to us (Don't worry it wont be deterministic in nature and you will still see many plausible outcomes like in EU3 this is just flavour, then I would even stop arguing here.. I can live with a few immersion breaking moments! the fact however is atm, that we have seen alot of NI that are tagged to specific nations no matter the outcome and based on events over 100 years after the game start.. thats really the heart of the discussion here, as I wrote earlier, it might be that some generics are 100% identical, but with another name then I would still rather have had a game where you actually need to have certain requirements in order to get your bonuses (again the Swedish example with Finland comes to mind for easy understanding)

Response in Violet..

So please.. nobody said "this game is flawed now and we wont buy it! it will be deterministic" instead people are asking for more information and actual comments on why the system was picked, some questions have been answered others not, with either the game nor full information about the game, its to early to actually be 100% sure about half our discussion, but as you might have notice, there is a strong tradition on Paradox forums that the community interacts with eachother and the devs on their views and even sometimes suggest good ideas... Its pretty nice that people can discuss these features!!

Sure alot of discussions turn out on what people find negative and stuff like the new trade system that most people love!! (including myself) are not focused on so much..

Last note.

I don't want to compare my game to any of the other series, this is not CK, nor Hoi, nor Vicky!! this is EU... I play all the series for different reasons!!!

 

[Wallain]

The country specific idea groups can be easily deleted from a plain text file.

Are they grouped into one file or do you have to go through a lot of tag specific files?

 

[DarkieBabZ]

The country specific idea groups can be easily deleted from a plain text file.

Thank for for that information.

 

[Captain Gars]

Are they grouped into one file or do you have to go through a lot of tag specific files?

They are in the same file as all the other idea groups.

 

[Wallain]

They are in the same file as all the other idea groups.

Also the assignment of ideas to a tag? I realize I formulated myself badly on my initial question, sorry, but that was what I was trying to get at.

 

[Dafool]

Response in Violet..

So please.. nobody said "this game is flawed now and we wont buy it! it will be deterministic" instead people are asking for more information and actual comments on why the system was picked, some questions have been answered others not, with either the game nor full information about the game, its to early to actually be 100% sure about half our discussion, but as you might have notice, there is a strong tradition on Paradox forums that the community interacts with eachother and the devs on their views and even sometimes suggest good ideas... Its pretty nice that people can discuss these features!!

Sure alot of discussions turn out on what people find negative and stuff like the new trade system that most people love!! (including myself) are not focused on so much..

Last note.

I don't want to compare my game to any of the other series, this is not CK, nor Hoi, nor Vicky!! this is EU... I play all the series for different reasons!!!

This ultimately doesn't have a lot to do with that I said though. There is are a small handful of people who have said "This is too deterministic and the game will bad because of it". EU3 didn't differ much from EU4 in this matter and yet things like NI names hardly ever came up as an issue. Similarly, we haven't played the game yet. It is impossible for us to really deduce the effects of these changes yet. I couldn't care less about whether people like these features or not and want to discuss them in the context of the game. My issue is the notion that the game must be bad because it doesn't line up with someone's preferences. It's even gotten to the point that people are suggesting the devs add in options to turn these things off, before any of us have even got to test them. Not only is that highly presumptuous, but its also just plain senseless for the devs to waste time on right now.

 

[DarkieBabZ]

This ultimately doesn't have a lot to do with that I said though. There is are a small handful of people who have said "This is too deterministic and the game will bad because of it". EU3 didn't differ much from EU4 in this matter and yet things like NI names hardly ever came up as an issue. Similarly, we haven't played the game yet. It is impossible for us to really deduce the effects of these changes yet. I couldn't care less about whether people like these features or not and want to discuss them in the context of the game. My issue is the notion that the game must be bad because it doesn't line up with someone's preferences. It's even gotten to the point that people are suggesting the devs add in options to turn these things off, before any of us have even got to test them. Not only is that highly presumptuous, but its also just plain senseless for the devs to waste time on right now.

Forget my post.. I do not with to discuss with you dafool.. you know where it ends.. I don't wanna use 14 pages of discussion with, the two of us looking past eachother when we agree on half the stuff debated here (ref. to our old thread)

 

[Hector of Troy]

So you want PI to preemptively implement measures to change their own system because you have complaints that they don't agree with?

With all due respect Dafool, that´s not what he´s been saying at all. All the time he has been doing nothing but defending his point of views in respect of what National Ideas might represent to EU4. And as far as I understand, there is nothing wrong with making assumptions of any sort, which of course will be motivated by personal preferences, based on what has been written by the devs so far. After all, that´s what everybody here has been doing since page one.

In the end, you are just trusting the game will revolve around plausible outcomes determined by real historical events - which others like me would call “same old boring history recreated” -, while he´s clearly hoping for the opposite.

Nobody is right, nobody is wrong. And nobody is in any sense being disrespectful to Paradox members either.

we haven't played the game yet. It is impossible for us to really deduce the effects of these changes yet. I couldn't care less about whether people like these features or not and want to discuss them in the context of the game.

As you put very well, it´s nearly impossible to discuss National Ideas by themselves at this point of development, which for us potential players means practically none, just as it is virtually impossible to debate about National Ideas in the context of the game as well. Both things are equally difficult to be properly discussed at this point.

* Now I am addressing paradox staff, and I genuinely mean what I say. You fellows represent the best game industry in the world, and you certainly know that. Well, sorry for getting sentimental here, but I felt you lovely creatures needed to have your egos a little inflated. EU4 looks very promising, and I am positive EU4 will turn out to be the game of the decade.

 

[Avrelianvs]

* Now I am addressing paradox staff, and I genuinely mean what I say. You fellows represent the best game industry in the world, and you certainly know that. Well, sorry for getting sentimental here, but I felt you lovely creatures needed to have your egos a little inflated. EU4 looks very promising, and I am positive EU4 will turn out to be the game of the decade.

Are you kidding me?! You don't say to a bright child that he's great, you say to him 'Meh, you can do better' so he applies more and becomes a genius. All this forum is based on that!

 

[Captain Gars]

Also the assignment of ideas to a tag? I realize I formulated myself badly on my initial question, sorry, but that was what I was trying to get at.

Yes, all ideas are in one file.

 

[Wallain]

Yes, all ideas are in one file.

Well, that's substantially easier than I imagined then. Thanks for the info.

 

[TheDarkMaster]

The one final big concern for me is NIs that actually give unique mechanics to specific nations. For example:
Inter Caetera: Allows claiming of colonies

How exactly do you balance this with other nations, when as of yet, I haven't seen any other NIs that do anything other then just give numerical bonuses to specific things.