Destroying the HRE from outside - how?

[unmerged(587143)]

In a recent game as the Doux of Krete, the Byzantine emperor acquired a claim on the HRE and pressed it when he was about 65 (I had nothing to do with this). He died of old age, leaving the HRE to some random German (I didn't pay attention), but large chunks of its land were now Byzantine territory. Eventually the Danes seized the HRE, formed the Scandinavian Empire, and at some point (I'm not clear on this) the HRE itself was destroyed, leaving only a bunch of duchies that were, of course, easy pickings for the Mongol horde. Long story short, most of the HRE's territory converted to Tengri, and that region was constantly at war with itself from that moment onward. Good times.

It was the first time I'd ever seen the HRE totally collapse, and also I think the first time I'd ever seen the AI form an empire on its own.

 

[knppel]

Started as Super-Duke in the HRE, went indie, swore fealty to the ERE, became Multi-Despot (basically 400% of liege levy) and managed to push de jure Kingdom claims until it was destroyed.
What happens, as soon as she has 400 piety my pudding-brain-Basilissa-AI-wife CREATES the damn title due to us controlling 99% of HRE's de jure.
Fucked up my genius plan with incorporating my Kingdoms in her realm de jure for 600 prestige. I loved her for that.

 

[doubleskulls]

Hmmm noticed another interesting pattern.

In my french game (as preparation for a polish game) the bastards got Zeeland already and I´m constantly stepping on eggs because if I DOW someone, and the HRE is at peace, them BLAM "We want ze Brugge county GTFO frog!" (remember that Flandres is de jure part of the HRE. Eternal de jure CB, just lovely...). BUT, if they are at war with someone, then they won´t pester me. So at least I´m learning a way to keep the blob away.

About the invasion CB, how does it work in 1.08? Haven´t used it yet in this version (last version I´ve played was 1.05). I also think that managing to get the emperor excomunnicated might be awesome, through very difficult because France has Free investiture. Should I change it to Papal investiture to have a more friendly pope?

Keep marrying into the Emperor's family for alliance. The AI doesn't seem to break alliances, and often will help you out.

If you want to take the HRE by force then, as others have said you need to exploit its civil wars for your own ends as much as possible. I normally see this as opportunities to grab a bit of land off the rebels, but backing the rebels to win may also be a good idea if they look like they've got a chance. Also assassinating the Emperor can help keep them weak. This is doubly true if they've got lost a war of independence since converting the strong claim to a weak one asap significantly reduces the emperor's chances to press the claims.

 

[Jagsman32]

Use politics and scheming to ensure an Italian (or foreigner) or heathen/heretic acquires the throne.

Profit and laugh while the Empire shrinks every year due to constant internal wars.

I remember one game I was playing as the just crowned Queen of Poland. Not a year after she took the throne, the HRE declared war. I somehow managed a decent stack despite my vassals hating me. She personally led the stack that defeated the Emperor and captured him. Executed him in the Alps, his son took over, had 100% warscore, ended the war and also put the new Emperor (a 6 year old) in prison. Also helped I had my most trustful ally Hungary helping me out.

After that, the HRE didn't bother me again for a looong time.

 

[unmerged(494787)]

Actually, one of the best solutions is to destabilize the HRE until the Emperor has little personal territory (pressing a claim for a bad, bad man is a good way to do this). Then, get all of his vassals revolting/independent. Press a claim to the Emperor's personal territory - it has to be his territory, NOT the Emperor title. This should cause the HRE title to be destroyed when the Emperor loses the last of his land and has nowhere to relocate to.

 

[lolciokuba]

Agreed the HRE is the most annoying thing about this game. But its still possible to damage them or curb their power a bit. In my Poland and Denmark plays i harassed the Empire constantly, suporting rebels, mudering heirs. I found that Excommunication CB works pretty well during or after a major rebellion, allied with King of Hungary i was able to dethrone the emperor after a large indpendence war which he lost ensuring that he wont come back so strong.

Even better option is to wait until someone who is not German declare a war for empire, then support him. Non german on the HRE throne causes a major problem for them, i once saw emperor's throne change time 7 times in 5 years due to an event like this.

 

[Kalderus]

the HRE is broken.

Until a DLC is made for the HRE to simulate the continous crisis it was under for centuries,the HRE will be a game killer

Lololololol, this must be a joke, right? You do realize we still have Fatimid invasions of Greece in 1100?

 

[Fishy101]

Keep marrying into the Emperor's family for alliance. The AI doesn't seem to break alliances, and often will help you out.

If you want to take the HRE by force then, as others have said you need to exploit its civil wars for your own ends as much as possible. I normally see this as opportunities to grab a bit of land off the rebels, but backing the rebels to win may also be a good idea if they look like they've got a chance. Also assassinating the Emperor can help keep them weak. This is doubly true if they've got lost a war of independence since converting the strong claim to a weak one asap significantly reduces the emperor's chances to press the claims.

I've played as the Queen of Castille whose mother was Matilda Duchess of Tuscany. I married the Kaiser's son who was at one point his heir and proceeded to use the HRE to clobber my uncle. Then the Kaiser turned around and declared war on me over Tuscany. I surrendered immediately since I wasn't going to win and I didn't care about Tuscany. He never came to my aid after that even thought he was the one who broke the alliance for no reason (since his grandson was going to inherit it all anyway). Long story short, don't count on the AI not breaking alliances.

 

[Talq]

I've seen the HRE convert to a heresy then proceed to convert the entire HRE to that heresy over 60 years (and shrug off a crusade in the process). Which says a lot about its relative power (in game) in 1066.

Later it can get caught in independence/lower crown authority revolts for decades, especially if someone other than the Salians manages to become HRE.

 

[opellulo]

When i was playing as the Duke of Lorraine a strange thing happened (it was 1.07 with CK2+):
- A strong Emperor died leaving a weak heir;
- This started a civil war with one of his relative; the war was short but brutal, since both of them died in battle;
- Their heirs continued the war but they that both died in battle shortly afterwards;
- This triggered a massive independence revolt, which i quickly joined;
- A massive Age of turmoils fired: basically two not so powerful dukes were fighting for the Emperor title while every other duke was at war with them (and sometimes with some other Duke);
- The indipendence war ended with a victory
- The claim war ended for one of the contendants when he shortly after died!
- His heir was 3 and he didn't become Emperor, the HRE simply dissolved leaving a puzzle of different dukes disgruntled to each other. Still didn't figured why!

Luckily for me in a couple of generations my duchess was married with the 4th in line for the Kingdom of France, all the heirs died (i admit i helped a little with the last one . Et Voilà! a German King of France ready to retake all the former HRE land. The things complicated a bith further but still it was one of the funniest game i had!

 

[yezhanquan]

Seems that the HRE title somehow died. That does take a lot of killing.

 

[A_Dane]

When i was playing as the Duke of Lorraine a strange thing happened (it was 1.07 with CK2+):
- A strong Emperor died leaving a weak heir;
- This started a civil war with one of his relative; the war was short but brutal, since both of them died in battle;
- Their heirs continued the war but they that both died in battle shortly afterwards;
- This triggered a massive independence revolt, which i quickly joined;
- A massive Age of turmoils fired: basically two not so powerful dukes were fighting for the Emperor title while every other duke was at war with them (and sometimes with some other Duke);
- The indipendence war ended with a victory
- The claim war ended for one of the contendants when he shortly after died!
- His heir was 3 and he didn't become Emperor, the HRE simply dissolved leaving a puzzle of different dukes disgruntled to each other. Still didn't figured why!

Luckily for me in a couple of generations my duchess was married with the 4th in line for the Kingdom of France, all the heirs died (i admit i helped a little with the last one . Et Voilà! a German King of France ready to retake all the former HRE land. The things complicated a bith further but still it was one of the funniest game i had!

That must have been beautiful..

The closest I've had to that was a superlotharingia (it ended up inheriting all of Burgundy + some of italy somehow), breaking free.

Looked like the carling dissolution of the empire

 

[Beagá]

Pretty interesting indeed, pity that the only way to cause that by player intervention is apparently by killing emperors. A lot.

 

[Casiru]

The empire collapses if you win a merc invasion. If you ask to join a merc invasion they will accept so just siege a few provinces and the whole thing turns into a duke level title meaning every duke or above title in the HRE is destroyed. You then likely have a wrong culture super duke that everyone wants a piece of so you end up with lots of independent counts fairly quickly.

1)HRE goes below 0 gold with some 1500 merc unit.
2)Merc declares war.
3)Join and win war.
4)HRE is gone, good job.

 

[ASPGolan]

Pretty interesting indeed, pity that the only way to cause that by player intervention is apparently by killing emperors. A lot.

You win some, they loose some.., What the heck?

 

[unmerged(47028)]

The empire collapses if you win a merc invasion. If you ask to join a merc invasion they will accept so just siege a few provinces and the whole thing turns into a duke level title meaning every duke or above title in the HRE is destroyed. You then likely have a wrong culture super duke that everyone wants a piece of so you end up with lots of independent counts fairly quickly.

1)HRE goes below 0 gold with some 1500 merc unit.
2)Merc declares war.
3)Join and win war.
4)HRE is gone, good job.

Good idea but I never saw merc revolting.

 

[ASPGolan]

Good idea but I never saw merc revolting.

They revolt if for example you get to 0 with your money. Not all of them. But you're in deep sh*t once they do.

 

[Carmichael]

The reason why the HRE is so stable is because of their levy. Personnally I played as pagan and HRE declared Holy War on me. However I was fully prepared and allied with almost all the pagans + some christian kingdoms and I could defeat their doomstack. What happened next? All factions within the empire pressed their claims (Independance/Lower Crown/CLaim Empire).

 

[Sweynforkbeard]

The grey blob not only has an ugly color, but can really wreck your plans if suddenly they decide to press the claims of count Doofus the Imbecile on a barony you didn´t even know that existed, and come knocking at your door with those 20k stacks.

Through there are ways of dealing with it from the inside, how to cripple it when playing Denmark, France etc? One way I know of is to plot or murder the emperor and pray the next one is a child with 0 diplo, so that the rebellions can begin. Then you get as many counties or duchies as you can from the independant revolters.

But are there other ways of getting land and damaging the BGB?

If you are Denmark.
1. Marry into the the emperors family.
2. Declare war on pagans.
3. Invite the emperor to join the war (he will always accept when the goal is to beat up pagans)
4. Keep your wars on the pagans going as long as possible while you build up your strength.
5. Wait for a succession crisis.
6. Strike and keep striking, grab as much as you want/can get your hands on by invasion or by finding and landing claimants and repeatedly declaring war for their claims. Repeatedly ravaging his coastline will usually do the trick.

 

[unmerged(462833)]

Yep, HRE is really annoying., In my game they faced independence lewague and lost a war - so they lost Duchy of Savoie, Lombardia, Kingdom of Bohemia, big Kingdom of Bavaria and few others Duchies... But after few years Emperor started his reconquest and just crushed all of them one by one. Most shocking was destroying Bavaria, which didn't have any chance in spite of the fact they had really big army. Few years later Emperor faced Kingdom of Lotharingia (he demanded his title) and after white peace he just revoked king title without any penalty...