Destroying the HRE from outside - how?

[Beagá]

The grey blob not only has an ugly color, but can really wreck your plans if suddenly they decide to press the claims of count Doofus the Imbecile on a barony you didn´t even know that existed, and come knocking at your door with those 20k stacks.

Through there are ways of dealing with it from the inside, how to cripple it when playing Denmark, France etc? One way I know of is to plot or murder the emperor and pray the next one is a child with 0 diplo, so that the rebellions can begin. Then you get as many counties or duchies as you can from the independant revolters.

But are there other ways of getting land and damaging the BGB?

 

[crayolacrayon]

Hit and run. When they are busy with say Poland or Hungary launch a quick attack from your side to grab some territory.

 

[Kyoumen]

I usually just find an excuse to invade them and smash their armies every time the're in an independence war, ensuring the revolters win. Then marry or otherwise support the major revolters to prevent them being reeaten a decade later. Or just press claim to the HRE title and destroy it afterwards.

 

[Mods]

If you want them gone for good I think the only way is to have a different religion and holy war them a million times. (unless you're Islamic)

 

[SlyEcho]

Holy war, megastacks (30k), assaulting everything before they can gather their forces, break truce and repeat, etc, etc.

 

[unmerged(47028)]

I saw collapsing after numerous revolts and the rebuilding in no time because independent duchies were happy to accept vassalisation offers of following emperors. So basically there is no point of supporting rebellious vassals unless they are outside de jure HRE. The only way is to acquiring and destroying HRE title. The same thing is with ERE. I never saw it being destroyed. Not like in CK1.

 

[unmerged(596352)]

the HRE is broken.

Until a DLC is made for the HRE to simulate the continous crisis it was under for centuries,the HRE will be a game killer

 

[Skyhunteren]

So the guy is asking how to soften the hre because he can't deal with 20k doomstacks and peoples ideas areto gather 30k megastacks and holywar hre to oblivion or destroy all their armies during a indepence war.

I got a better idea:
1. Start as random count in Ireland.
2. Get invasion cb on hre
3. Declare war
4. ??!?!?!
5. Win war

Honestly though. Because of its size you can often marry into kingdoms that borders the hre so they will help you, but still so far away that they will rarely press claims on you. Make a mega count/duke bordering the hre. If you have low ca he will start eating the lesser hre vassals.

 

[Mods]

So the guy is asking how to soften the hre because he can't deal with 20k doomstacks and peoples ideas areto gather 30k megastacks and holywar hre to oblivion or destroy all their armies during a indepence war.

I got a better idea:
1. Start as random count in Ireland.
2. Get invasion cb on hre
3. Declare war
4. ??!?!?!
5. Win war

Honestly though. Because of its size you can often marry into kingdoms that borders the hre so they will help you, but still so far away that they will rarely press claims on you. Make a mega count/duke bordering the hre. If you have low ca he will start eating the lesser hre vassals.

but then you'll become what you've always hated

 

[Avidian]

the HRE is broken.

Until a DLC is made for the HRE to simulate the continous crisis it was under for centuries,the HRE will be a game killer

Game killer is a bit strong as the HRE does do a decent job of filling the historical role at least from the outside perspective. It is sadly more abstract than history buffs might like and when you're actually playing within the HRE it is wrong, but it is hardly a game killer for ever other country one might play. The HRE can get broken in some games if the CA gets to high but that has been rare in my play throughs. Still, it should be a force to reckoned with and far from fragile, as it currently is in game. There are dozens of ways to make it more realistic but in many situations the abstract game version gets the job done. I would love to see a lot of attention thrown its way, though.

 

[A_Dane]

Game killer is a bit strong as the HRE does do a decent job of filling the historical role at least from the outside perspective. It is sadly more abstract than history buffs might like and when you're actually playing within the HRE it is wrong, but it is hardly a game killer for ever other country one might play. The HRE can get broken in some games if the CA gets to high but that has been rare in my play throughs. Still, it should be a force to reckoned with and far from fragile, as it currently is in game. There are dozens of ways to make it more realistic but in many situations the abstract game version gets the job done. I would love to see a lot of attention thrown its way, though.

In most of my (unmodded) games the HRE are in control of most of Lithaunia by 1130 at the latest..

They then proceed to gobble up most neighbouring states piece by piece. Why? Because they can press vassal claims which are fabricated all the time -.-

The scariest thing I saw was when they managed to take over France somehow, they had already taken Poland by then...

In general it seems to me like it's not a specific problem with the HRE, but with empires in general - they're just too stable.

 

[Avidian]

In most of my (unmodded) games the HRE are in control of most of Lithaunia by 1130 at the latest..

In general it seems to me like it's not a specific problem with the HRE, but with empires in general - they're just too stable.

I agree that empires and the HRE in particular is too stable and unified in purpose. However, Lithuania is a problem that goes beyond the HRE - in general pagan lands get gobbled up way to easily. Even if the HRE is otherwise occupied, Lithuania and most of Pagan Europe is going to get quickly eaten by the kingdoms of the region. Like the HRE itself, the game has a hard time balancing strong defensive power without making unrealistic offensive power. The pagans are already very strong at the start but even getting two or three times the manpower per county, they cannot hold out. So while I also often see the HRE or someone else conquer Lithuania, I don't consider that a problem of the HRE but with the pagan mechanics. I should note that if I could pick the next patch/DLC content, it would definitely be to fix the HRE and not the pagans but I'd like to see both handled very differently.

 

[A_Dane]

I agree that empires and the HRE in particular is too stable and unified in purpose. However, Lithuania is a problem that goes beyond the HRE - in general pagan lands get gobbled up way to easily. Even if the HRE is otherwise occupied, Lithuania and most of Pagan Europe is going to get quickly eaten by the kingdoms of the region. Like the HRE itself, the game has a hard time balancing strong defensive power without making unrealistic offensive power. The pagans are already very strong at the start but even getting two or three times the manpower per county, they cannot hold out. So while I also often see the HRE or someone else conquer Lithuania, I don't consider that a problem of the HRE but with the pagan mechanics. I should note that if I could pick the next patch/DLC content, it would definitely be to fix the HRE and not the pagans but I'd like to see both handled very differently.

Recently I've begun modding my game because of this.. And I ended up at a conclusion: Remove the HRE's ability to wage holy war. It might not be the best solution, but IMO it makes for the best outcome. The HRE wasn't a cohesive expansive empire (a few crusades might be the exception, but those are not affected).

I'm also strongly considering setting a "timer" on holy wars as well, like the one on crusades. Hopefully it'd also improve the situation in Iberia, allowing the christian kingdoms to stabilize somewhat before clashing with the muslims.. but not sure if it'd work.

But yeah, overall I'd much rather see a HRE DLC before a pagan one, simply because at current, it'd be the most logical approach: If they make a Pagan DLC right now, they'll have to balance it around a somewhat broken HRE, which IMO should get a DLC of their own, and this DLC might change the factors...

 

[ASPGolan]

At first - through marriages, of your clan or some vassal. I got married to a woman that became by mistake duchess. Because of their crown authority, when she died, my children inherited the land and it was included in my realm. I didn't even get a negative modifier either, I think.

Later on, hit and run, as they said - unless you're the ERE ....

 

[Beagá]

Hmmm noticed another interesting pattern.

In my french game (as preparation for a polish game) the bastards got Zeeland already and I´m constantly stepping on eggs because if I DOW someone, and the HRE is at peace, them BLAM "We want ze Brugge county GTFO frog!" (remember that Flandres is de jure part of the HRE. Eternal de jure CB, just lovely...). BUT, if they are at war with someone, then they won´t pester me. So at least I´m learning a way to keep the blob away.

About the invasion CB, how does it work in 1.08? Haven´t used it yet in this version (last version I´ve played was 1.05). I also think that managing to get the emperor excomunnicated might be awesome, through very difficult because France has Free investiture. Should I change it to Papal investiture to have a more friendly pope?

 

[burny26]

Excommunicate the emperor if possible.

 

[SweetHalcyHS]

Not that hard, really. Expand as much as you can, and then doomstacking them when they're busy somewhere else helps out a lot. (By which I mean assaulting and occupying as many holdings as you can so you can rack up that warscore like insane before they can turn their attention to you.

 

[yezhanquan]

Identify the super dukes within the HRE, and see if you can invite the heir to your court. Grant the fellow a county and a duchy, and bump off his father/older brother in the HRE. Viola: You just gain 3-4 duchies within the HRE without touching a pike or sword.

 

[RustyTurban]

1.?!?!!?!?!
2.?!?!!?!?! results in you somehow getting the 6 year old Holy Roman Emperor as your ward, to convert him to a heresy.
3. Watch as fun-times roll
4. OR watch as Empire fully converts to heresy and holy-wars you to Mars.

 

[yezhanquan]

1.?!?!!?!?!
2.?!?!!?!?! results in you somehow getting the 6 year old Holy Roman Emperor as your ward, to convert him to a heresy.
3. Watch as fun-times roll
4. OR watch as Empire fully converts to heresy and holy-wars you to Mars.

The HRE emperor in my game somehow converted to a heresy himself.... while 99% of his court/vassals are still Catholic, not to mention territory. I only realised when the man in Rome called a crusade for Kingdom of Italy.