Destiny of Nations 2 Discussions

[Damocles]

In any case. I doubt you would deliberately lie to me on the boards here, Barnius, so I'll put this down to a miscommunication. I thought we had a rock solid agreement regarding Venice (After I agreed to your proposal in full). I suppose I was wrong.

 

[Norrefeldt]

First, I hope Eliasar were there to sub for me yesterday.

Originally posted by PJL
I pretty much agree with Peter on time-wasting before and during session. I suggest we try and play at least 10 years per session (15 years ideally), no matter what, unless there are less than 12 players.

Perhaps certain critical nations like Spain, England, Netherlands, etc could be subbed by another player (preferably asking someone who is playing a minor German / Italian mnor, then minor, non-Mughal Indian, then Poland), much like Onslaught was asked to play France instead of the Pope a couple of sessions ago.

Also it would be a good idea to have a 15-30 minute pre-game meetup in V-net, so that people could d/l any edited savefiles from the host. (and also d/l savefile after a session too). For example, ask players to meet in V-net for 6.30pm (BST) for a 7pm start, then someone with the savefile can host and anyone who is there can then join and download.

Of course trying to get everyone ready with ICQing etc can be a nightmare, even with 8 people, let alone 16 or more. Therefore I suggest 2 people organise it - one to host and for people d/l before game, the other round up people (and any possible subs) by ICQ.

I fully understand Peter totally fed up with ppl not being punctual, I consider it rude if done deliberatly. While I feel PJL:s intentions are well ment I cannot see this solve the problem. I look forward to some rules set down by Archduke. If playing ten years every session no matter what is implemented, I and other persons that have a job, might have problems continuing. And I don't think certain nations ought to have different rules, forcing ppl to abandon their own country to play for a someone not showing up. If they do, like Onslaught have done, it is very nice of them, but not necessary.
The ones that can show up earlier to download could do so, I know some that cannot.

I would prefer clear and definite rules (to prevent ten minutes discussion at sessions start over how a player not present should be treated). A mere suggestion:
Play begins at 20.10 CET, then no more downloads or messing around (otherwise it *will* be more like 20.30, since ppl drop in) At midgame 22.00 a break is made to pick up players absent at start. Rules are also needed for players at war and for one player that crashes, but we seem to have some sort of rules for that? At least I have not felt it to be a major problem.

 

[unmerged(10146)]

Originally posted by Damocles
Thats funny, because during negotiations regarding Venice, you constantly brought up the ToV to justify even me paying you 1300 ducats. Then I agreed to it regardless. It went beyond a proposal when we both agreed to do it.

True, I constantly brought up the ToV to justify you paying me 1300 ducats. Meaning I constantly brought up that we have ToV and that ToV is not an alliance, that we are not friends and you should pay for any further help. I also said I am reluctant to helo Austria at all, regardless of 1300 d. And I said everything has to be agreed before the session. It wasn't. Agreement is nothing witout a scedule of payments. Did you think OE would move even one finger without at leasthalf of money being paid?

And OOC, sorry, but I can't resist temptation :

Originally posted by Damocles
Or stupid.

...your comment on former Doge deal with OE - 600 d + military helo for 4 Venetian provinces...and you say some wague kind of agreement, that even didn't end up signed, in which you agree to pay OE 1300 d for OE to take 5 Venetian provines is smart? And that I have to just believe you would pay? Without a written agreement? I am not THAT naive .

Originally posted by Damocles
It seems recently, you've been pointing to the ToV to justify every possible action, even those harmful to Austria.

I stand by what I said. ToV means firm Balkans border. But doesn't limit OE or Austria foreign policy, unless BoP is endangered.
Actions HARMFUL to Austria are not justified by ToV. But I didn't say that. I just said I am not ready to HELP Austria. Slowing Austrian insane advance isn't HARMFUL. Harmful would be supporting France to TAKE something from Austria for example.

Originally posted by Damocles
And do you really think that allying with Venice, thus depriving me of Mantua and Veneto and sticking your nose in exclusively Habsburg affairs (I.E, the division of Italy), and not only that, but attacking my neighbour with the intent of strengthening a member of the French alliance, who you knew my intent toward was....While at the same time trying to make it so that you still got your islands.

Islands and Dalmatia ARE covered by ToV. They are on Balkans and they are OE culture. And I could take them WITHOUT Austria help.
On the other hand, Austria needed help here. Austria asked me to "stick my nose" into divission of Venice, asked repeatadly, although it was clear I am reluctant to help Austria, which was only natural. But "not helping" is not "harming".
And more: Austrian and Ottoman policy in Italy were the same: united Italy under Venice. BoP in Europe. Austria changed hed mind. Too bad. Ottoman goal stayed the same.

Originally posted by Damocles
That dosen't sound very naive to me. That sounds rather cunning. You might honor an agreement to the LETTER, (Much like Ulver) but you obviously have no concern for the SPIRIT of it. Which was basically along the lines of "Don't try and screw me over and I won't mess with you".

What else can we do than to honor the agreement to the letter. And about the spirit of the agreement, ask BiB to explain it to you. ICQ History contains a lot of it. basically it's what I told you:
- it's mainly about Balkans border: Austrian culture to Austria, Ottoman to OE, Krain and Transilvania exceptions
we are not enemies, but certainly not friends eitherž
- we are not allies
- we encourage BoP in Europe and reasonable peace deals
- every country has his own independent internal and foreign policy
- we might very well end up in war because of our allies, we might even DoW each other, but the goal can't be change of Balkans border; our soldiers can die in mutual battles, but the border remains
- a lot of examples were given, one being: Austria and Spain DoW France and completely defeat her, asking too much; OE DoWs Austria and demands reasonable demands; anything above returning of Spanish and Austrian cores and 1 French core is too much (perhaps it was something about vassals also, I don't have this part of ICQ History here)[/B][/QUOTE]

Originally posted by Damocles
You've proven nothing to me, except you're willing to use lawyerspeak to get around obligations.

Obligations? What obligations? The ONLY agreement we have is ToV. I haven't publically denounce my signiture. Ergo from my side nothing changed.
No other agreements, and under ToV certainly I had no obligations to Austria. On the contrary, I had an obligation to myself as OE not to help Austria more than in Hungarian situation.
And again, ToV was signed with Emperor BiB in above described spirit. Sultan still finds the agreement walid. So Sultanis ready to sign it's renewal.
Could Emperor please be so kind to confirm the same?

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by Johan
I said 25% to you multiple times in the game.

Well, I didn't send u an insult

25% is way too low btw

 

[unmerged(10146)]

Originally posted by Damocles
Defense of the Mother Church from the infidel. Infidels who disregard the spirit of a treaty to attempt to harm Austria regardless (I.E, you noted an exclusive objective was to make sure Austria didn't get Veneto, despite the Ottomans still getting to claim their 5 islands)...Despite Austria being under the impression that we were agreed over the fate of Venice.

Completely void!
Religion has nothing to do with ToV. You can be Budist if you want, I don't care.
Spirit of the treaty, explained in the above post, in fact more encourages ME to intervene than just to sit and watch Austria annex arround Germany. BoP.
True, HARMING Austria would be against ToV. But "slowing down a bit Austrian insane advance" is not "harming Austria" in my book. In fact, look at it this way: I actually wanted to HELP Austria not to become the most hated country in the world in only 5 years Formidable achievement indeed

Partition of Venice: please read carefully, you could notice some differences :
- Dalmatia and Greek Islands are Ottoman culture, therefore Ottoman under ToV
- OE can take them alone
- OE didn't ask Austria for help in this
- OE even agreed to resolve it peacefully with former Doge

- Veneto and Mantua are not covered by ToV
- Austria can't deal with Venice alone at least for some time
- Austria asked OE for help
- Under the spirit of ToV OE was reluctant to help Austria and so we didn't agree on this

 

[unmerged(10146)]

Originally posted by Damocles
In any case. I doubt you would deliberately lie to me on the boards here, Barnius, so I'll put this down to a miscommunication. I thought we had a rock solid agreement regarding Venice (After I agreed to your proposal in full). I suppose I was wrong.

Miscommunication, I agree. Only written and signed agreements are agreements.
To avoid any aditional miscommunication, I suggest we to agree and sign ToV again. Or declare it void.

 

[unmerged(10146)]

Originally posted by BiB
Well, I didn't send u an insult

25% is way too low btw

I don't accept setting it to 40% or something in the new patch Let King of Spain suffer from being sooooo greeeeeedy

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by Barnius
I don't accept setting it to 40% or something in the new patch Let King of Spain suffer from being sooooo greeeeeedy

I always supported 33% really.

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by Barnius
Treaty of Vienna (let it be ToV, because I hope it will last) doesn't say anything about Venice. Read it. It only settles more or less fixed border between Austria and OE on Balkans. And one more time, it was signed with BiB. But that's not crucial. I intend to honor it with you also. As I said by ICQ just before the session yesterday.
ToV also says something about BoP. Under ToV OE and Austria can even be at war to preserve BoP, as I said to you. Ask BiB, we agreed on that. If you want to destroy France, OE will DoW you and that will not be against ToV. We want to preserve BoP. Austria and OE. According to ToV.
Don't say I broke ToV, read the "histoy" part of the file, I explained many times to France exactly what I said to you: OE willnot go to war against Austria UNLESS France was defeated AND too harsh peace was asked so BoP would be seriously threatened.
I would expect the same from you. Meaning I really can't see how you could, under ToV, intervene against Venice. I mean, Venice gave Austria Italy for nothing. BiB and I had an understanding: strong Venice. Lately we discussed her partition, because we become impatient and fad up with series of Venetian fails, but still, Austria owed Venice for Istria. And Austria had ToV with OE. So how exactly did you mean to justify "hitting Venice and OE like a ton of bricks" ?

I relinquished Austria to Damocles under certain conditions. That I'd get the Lowlands as Spain and most importantly that he were to honour every deal I made. AFAICS he has done so (obviously with a hugely different style ). The Balkan border is still there (though I somehow don't see how Mediterranean islands have anything to do with Balkan matters - geography, it's a bitch). Saxony backstabbed Austria by trying to strike a deal with France. It got what it deserved. Other than that what has Austria done that can even be considered so problematic? The ToV stipulates no interference into teh internal policy of a nation so what happens to Saxony is überhaupt not even a matter of concern for OE as it is within the HRE borders. Concerning BoP it is the OE who is the mightiest state so it's hard to hear it talk about how other nations are upsetting the BoP with mere internal policy moves while itself shows no signs of slowing down. Austria or France DOWing each other also isn't upsetting to the BoP, only a humiliating peace deal would be. Which, u have to admit, is miles away from happening so what is all this talk about an upset BoP?

 

[Norrefeldt]

Originally posted by BiB
I relinquished Austria to Damocles under certain conditions. That I'd get the Lowlands as Spain...

Hmmm.. this sounds rather doubtful to me, exploiting that you were allowed to change nations. Swapping nations with additional deals attached to it, I don't like it.
IMO, it is in the same league of tricks as giving away money to the nation you are going to play next (under Mowers 8 game MGC's) or juv striking deals for soon-to-emerge Holland with Venice a part of the deal.
(Anyone care for Russia, with 400d and maps in between?)

 

[unmerged(10146)]

Originally posted by BiB
I relinquished Austria to Damocles under certain conditions. That I'd get the Lowlands as Spain and most importantly that he were to honour every deal I made. AFAICS he has done so (obviously with a hugely different style ). The Balkan border is still there (though I somehow don't see how Mediterranean islands have anything to do with Balkan matters - geography, it's a bitch). Saxony backstabbed Austria by trying to strike a deal with France. It got what it deserved. Other than that what has Austria done that can even be considered so problematic? The ToV stipulates no interference into teh internal policy of a nation so what happens to Saxony is überhaupt not even a matter of concern for OE as it is within the HRE borders. Concerning BoP it is the OE who is the mightiest state so it's hard to hear it talk about how other nations are upsetting the BoP with mere internal policy moves while itself shows no signs of slowing down. Austria or France DOWing each other also isn't upsetting to the BoP, only a humiliating peace deal would be. Which, u have to admit, is miles away from happening so what is all this talk about an upset BoP?

I agree with almost everything Ah, it was soooo goood to talk with the old Emperor. I am looking forward to talks with the new one... I will use BiBs tactics: weary him down .
The only tiny thing I must correct, risking to be accused to again use lawyerish language, id ToV speaks about BoP in EUROPE. And only a small part of OE is in Europe .

 

[juv95hrn]

Oh, I have been asked by many a player to lay down and die peacefully as a good venetian boy... all in the name of facilitating the emergence of Holland. Did anyone say "gamey"? Thats one of the reasons I wasn't particulary keen on taking on Venice yesterday...


However now I'm getting into the part...

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by mnorrefeldt
(Anyone care for Russia, with 400d and maps in between?)

The King of Kings is interested. He will pay 50d for Samaria, 50d for Vladimir, and 200d for adding Muscowy to the realm of Persia

 

[Norrefeldt]

Ahh, I haven't heard of the outcome of the war. Seems Russia is pretty crappy nowadays. But if you want to abandon Persia, I'll lower to 200d.

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by mnorrefeldt
Hmmm.. this sounds rather doubtful to me, exploiting that you were allowed to change nations. Swapping nations with additional deals attached to it, I don't like it.
IMO, it is in the same league of tricks as giving away money to the nation you are going to play next (under Mowers 8 game MGC's) or juv striking deals for soon-to-emerge Holland with Venice a part of the deal.
(Anyone care for Russia, with 400d and maps in between?)

When Austria had promised the Lowlands to Spain before it is just upkeeping a deal.

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by Barnius
I agree with almost everything Ah, it was soooo goood to talk with the old Emperor. I am looking forward to talks with the new one... I will use BiBs tactics: weary him down .
The only tiny thing I must correct, risking to be accused to again use lawyerish language, id ToV speaks about BoP in EUROPE. And only a small part of OE is in Europe .

With the little addendum that every ducat and manpowerpoint earned outside Europe can be used in Europe to severely upset the BoP in Europe If what happened outside Europe didn't count a nation like, say, Spain could never threaten the BoP in Europe while it clearly can

 

[Norrefeldt]

Originally posted by BiB
When Austria had promised the Lowlands to Spain before it is just upkeeping a deal.

Then it's fair play. I didn't know that.

 

[RedPhoenix]

Originally posted by BiB
With the little addendum that every ducat and manpowerpoint earned outside Europe can be used in Europe to severely upset the BoP in Europe If what happened outside Europe didn't count a nation like, say, Spain could never threaten the BoP in Europe while it clearly can

So is Austria still honoring the treaty of giving artois to France in 1548? and not annexing palatinate as austria promised? And leaving genova independent as austria promised.

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by Johan
I said 25% to you multiple times in the game.

The fact it seems census taxes (they get added the last day of the year, not the first day of the new year) aren't used in calculating the percentage doesn't help either.

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by RedPhoenix
So is Austria still honoring the treaty of giving artois to France in 1548? and not annexing palatinate as austria promised? And leaving genova independent as austria promised.

It seems Austria has chosen a more anti-French policy, I would say

Thoguh all those promises came at the price of, for starters, peace for the odd 70 years and somehow I don't think we'll see that happen in our lifetimes Also, negotiating with Saxony as France was interfering in internal HRE policy, which also wasn't quite allowed

So, we have a new great situation where both sides can accuse the other of breaking the treaty already if they want