Despotic Empire - Perks pretty bad?

[Henry IX]

I assumed the stations were a way of dealing with a 'fast raider' tactic (using small fast ships with a quick FTL technology to destroy infrastructure such as spaceports). A few stations in critical systems will protect you from this tactic.

In addition, they give you extra combat power for a defensive tactic - with two equal powered empires the stations will give you a significant advantage.

 

[TheBeautifulVoid2]

@mackau: I can see that sort of "FTL Trap" being extremely powerful. It's probably too expensive to use in every system but would be viable (and very powerful) in choke points or defending high-value systems.

If you're okay with it, I'd like to suggest that this be known as a "mackau trap".

 

[Trithemius]

2 things:

one: despotic empire is freaking awesome for collectivist empires, basically amounting to a 10% food and mineral boost with no downsides besides a little extra micro to make sure your slaves are where you need them if youre a fanatic. combine it with decadent for your perfect space hive-mind playthrough

if you arent taking slaves, despotic empire isnt as good looking, but this is a sort of fallacy. thats like saying "i want to be peaceful and i think the benefits from the military junta gov type look sort of shitty" or "im going to be playing an individualist empire and i think the -ethics divergence from the theocratic republic is lacking". yes, if there are things that you dont want from certain gov types, they start to look crappy. you could just as easily play the military dicttorship and get your starwars on if the despotic empire isnt appealing to you

and two: the despotic empire doesnt require any ethos picks, unless you are individualist, it will ALWAYS be there. the same cant be said for some other govs you might find more appealing. despotic empire requires no ethos combinations, and isnt locked out from any ethos that might synergize with it. there is another goverment type that requires no ethos to pick that IMHO is the worst in the game. its called the plutocratic oligarchy. WTF???? the only advantage of this gov type is itll almost always be available to you. it offers +5% minerals and energy. as someone who plans on playing a couple collectivist empires, this gov type looks useless, but im sure for others its not; this is a sort of balance.

I nearly agree with everything here, except that I think that Plutocratic Oligarchy is pretty cool: it basically lets you have largely unrestricted ethics choices, it gives you minerals and energy bonuses flat (so also on stations), and it lets you RP a corporatist jerk (if you want).

So far my least interesting government options would have to the Theocratic Oligarchy and Theocratic Republic - and that is probably because we just have not seen how they have developed yet. Hopefully they will be interesting choices once we get a look at them.

 

[Trithemius]

Yes, but they also showed that you can still stack them in the same system. You just can't build loads next to each other. They can be mutually supportive with long range weapons and especially with strike craft.

Also note the FTL capture device that the stations all have as a default choice (there are other though). With that device, you should be able to design defences that keep the defense stations between the spaceports/planets and any attackers.

You could build it something like this:

Edge of system.
Fortress with FTL Blocker.
A few tier 2 stations within range of the fortress but using other devices.
A few cheap tier 1 platforms, you could put hangers on them (presumably) and they can support from very long range, as strike craft appear to be insystem capable small 'ships' as opposed to things like a torpedo with a max range.
Spaceport
Planet

That will be a big investment but for core systems it will be worth it. Less important systems can do a similar thing with tier 1 & 2 platforms.

The dev stream has woefully defended systems, the Just League blew up both spaceports in the Qirbus system, and could easily have wiped out the blorg homeworld sector to boot.

I am really hoping for the ability to use stations as part of a Vauban-inspired system of defence. Is that crossing the streams of Paradox games a bit too much?

@mackau: I can see that sort of "FTL Trap" being extremely powerful. It's probably too expensive to use in every system but would be viable (and very powerful) in choke points or defending high-value systems.

If you're okay with it, I'd like to suggest that this be known as a "mackau trap".

Mackau, ingénieur du ... uh space?

 

[Cannes]

I don't have enough data to calculate any odds

uh yes you do, you have more than sufficient data to make a good estimation.
You just have to make a couple of simplifications; Say there is 4 particular tech out of 30 that are important to get early and go from there. Who is likely to them first and what are the probabilities, should be fairly straight forward to calculate.

 

[mackau]

@mackau: I can see that sort of "FTL Trap" being extremely powerful. It's probably too expensive to use in every system but would be viable (and very powerful) in choke points or defending high-value systems.

If you're okay with it, I'd like to suggest that this be known as a "mackau trap".

Sure you can The spaceports and planets are effectively the entire point of your empire, so it makes sense to properly defend them. I know one of the other device types is (assuming it's still in game) a minefield, I'd enjoy watching enemy ships slowly trying to make their way through one and getting boomed.

It'd be a very powerful tactic in a hyperlane only game. It'd be like Space Empires games then.

I'm guessing the Devs have thought through this, and there might be some kind of counter-measure to the FTL capture device. Perhaps the Yump drive ignores them?

 

[BrokenSky]

@mackau: I can see that sort of "FTL Trap" being extremely powerful. It's probably too expensive to use in every system but would be viable (and very powerful) in choke points or defending high-value systems.

If you're okay with it, I'd like to suggest that this be known as a "mackau trap".

Also I think they mentioned minefields as one of the other utility options (ftl blocker, minefield, medic etc) so you could use them too?

 

[Koplin]

@mackau: I can see that sort of "FTL Trap" being extremely powerful. It's probably too expensive to use in every system but would be viable (and very powerful) in choke points or defending high-value systems.

If you're okay with it, I'd like to suggest that this be known as a "mackau trap".

@mackau - love your idea of creating a net of power in your major system(s) with the idea you got going. Seems like an incredible way to really limit a fleets movements through your chokepoint/protect your home system. The sheer idea of having to destroy two or three stations JUST to leave (while getting pounded by the fortress) is just an incredible idea and I plan on using the Mackau Trap at least in my home system

 

[jaredstanko]

everyone saying the science directorate seems useless: you have forgot the other special bonus that ONLY the science directorate gets

scientists can serve as leaders in the science directorate.

 

[Koplin]

everyone saying the science directorate seems useless: you have forgot the other special bonus that ONLY the science directorate gets

scientists can serve as leaders in the science directorate.

Not to mention specific techs/events specific to that government type only. And someone (can't remember who) mentioned how the +1 tech doesn't make a difference from a statistical perspective. The combination probability of a choose 4 vs a choose 3 makes a big difference...you're increasing your draws by one every time. That's a massive bonus early on. I would need more info to calculate the probability of drawing on rare techs, but I would speculate that on average you're drawing at least 2 more rare techs than anyone who isn't using that beautiful +1.

And as Jared mentioned, having a scientist leader is, in my humble opinion, potentially one of the most underrated benefits that will be reserved for the Scientists of the Galaxy .

 

[Trithemius]

Sure you can The spaceports and planets are effectively the entire point of your empire, so it makes sense to properly defend them. I know one of the other device types is (assuming it's still in game) a minefield, I'd enjoy watching enemy ships slowly trying to make their way through one and getting boomed.

It'd be a very powerful tactic in a hyperlane only game. It'd be like Space Empires games then.

I'm guessing the Devs have thought through this, and there might be some kind of counter-measure to the FTL capture device. Perhaps the Yump drive ignores them?

I was getting an extreme SE3 Minefield Abuse vibe from the second you said "minefield"...

 

[tilcir]

uh yes you do, you have more than sufficient data to make a good estimation.
You just have to make a couple of simplifications; Say there is 4 particular tech out of 30 that are important to get early and go from there. Who is likely to them first and what are the probabilities, should be fairly straight forward to calculate.

The cards are not equally weighed at all times though

 

[Koplin]

The cards are not equally weighed at all times though

But even taking into consideration their non equal weight, choosing four from the "x" amount of techs gives you a higher probability to pull the "good ones" vs the choosing of three.

 

[Trithemius]

But even taking into consideration their non equal weight, choosing four from the "x" amount of techs gives you a higher probability to pull the "good ones" vs the choosing of three.

Okay now this thread is getting pretty work-like...

The extra research options are pretty much useful in the same way that "draw +1 card" or increased "hand limit" are in complicated card games. If you have a deck of trash it won't help, but while you are trying to beeline particular technologies needed to amp your playstyle it is pretty significant.

 

[barny]

Might be, might not be. We don't know so why speculate on that rather than what we know?

So somehow we don't have enough data to take informed guess on the current perks and percentages offered aswell as the informations from the Dev Diaries. But it is reasonable to randomly guess at completely hidden never mentioned perks which will bring all government forms on par?

Except, I like that government form for the first empire I had in mind, quite a lot actually. I however don't like perks that based on the informations we have seem lackluster and quite inferior to other governments.

What I meant was: Just wait a few days to see how all the ethics, traits and governments are set in the release version and if they still seem to be underwhelming, we might have an actual informed discussion instead of poking in the dark.

 

[Koplin]

Okay now this thread is getting pretty work-like...

The extra research options are pretty much useful in the same way that "draw +1 card" or increased "hand limit" are in complicated card games. If you have a deck of trash it won't help, but while you are trying to beeline particular technologies needed to amp your playstyle it is pretty significant.

Hahaha, I was thinking the exact same thing.

Again, I feel that the government benefit of Science Directorate is so underrated in the forums right now.

 

[Trithemius]

Hahaha, I was thinking the exact same thing.

Again, I feel that the government benefit of Science Directorate is so underrated in the forums right now.

Plus that science leader thing!

"GOOD NEWS EVERYONE! I represent our leader, Director Farnsworth..."

(How do you pick just one?)

 

[lwarmonger]

In a game with random research how do you not see more control over your research as a major bonus?

So, first, people keep talking about a 5% research bonus for this form of government. I don't see that in the wiki, so is that in or not? Second, an additional choice is somewhat advantageous, but it isn't getting you progress any faster the way that direct bonuses to research, energy, or minerals do. Nor is it allowing you to amass significant additional resources from your military the way that lower upkeep costs do, or significantly benefiting the cohesion of your empire and/or productivity of slaves the way various forms of authoritarianisms do.

Now I'm not saying that it will turn out to be weak... however it seems that way to me. I will probably use the government form in conjunction with a lot of research bonus oriented ethos and traits to try and create a kind of "mad scientist" type of empire that specializes in rare tech. But given some of the dangers involved there, I'm curious to see how viable that is as a playing strategy.

 

[FLESH HUNTER]

So, first, people keep talking about a 5% research bonus for this form of government. I don't see that in the wiki, so is that in or not? Second, an additional choice is somewhat advantageous, but it isn't getting you progress any faster the way that direct bonuses to research, energy, or minerals do. Nor is it allowing you to amass significant additional resources from your military the way that lower upkeep costs do, or significantly benefiting the cohesion of your empire and/or productivity of slaves the way various forms of authoritarianisms do.

Now I'm not saying that it will turn out to be weak... however it seems that way to me. I will probably use the government form in conjunction with a lot of research bonus oriented ethos and traits to try and create a kind of "mad scientist" type of empire that specializes in rare tech. But given some of the dangers involved there, I'm curious to see how viable that is as a playing strategy.

The 5% bonus comes from the Ethos you need to pick to get that(Which only effects those pops) but it can also be doubled in fanatical but Despotic Hegemony would be better for quick research

 

[IIWW]

The 5% bonus comes from the Ethos you need to pick to get that(Which only effects those popes) but it can also be doubled in fanatical but Despotic Hegemony would be better for quick research

I know it's a typo... but "pops". "Popes" would be a dope name in spiritualist empire though