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Edmon

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Document Goals:
1) Forts actually useful to "Gamers" subtype of player.
2) Forts consistant with world logic for "Roleplayer" and "Casual" subtype of player.
3) Forts provide net benefit for "Casual" and "Roleplayer" subtype of player.
4) Resolve ZoC type problems for AI and players.

Constraints:
1) It is not wanted to be the case that it is desirable to have a Fort in every province.
2) Forts restricting movement in a consistant way is a developer design goal.

Current Implimentation Problems:
1) Fort is not mathematically nor tactically useful, so they will never be built by "Gamer" subtype players. "Gamer" subtype player will quickly realise this and delete/remove all of their forts.
2) Knowing that forts are sub-optimal, "Gamer" subtype players will often annihilate each other due to a lack of defenses, as well as crushing "Roleplayer" and "Casual" subtype players much more easily, due to the military and economic negative impacts of forts on such players.
3) Forts weaken all A.I. players considerably, by stripping them of the money they need to have a competitive military. It can actually cause, in some cases, the complete economic collapse of an A.I. nation.
4) Zone of Control is inconsistant and frustrating for players to deal with. It also frustrates the AI in certain cases, causing undesirable behaviour.

Proposed Changes:
1) Revise Fort cost down to 100G/level. This will price it at just slightly more expensive than the mercenaries needed to siege it. We do want to favour attacking over defense, but not so considerably. This will make a fort consistantly priced with other buildings.

2) The cost to maintain a fort will decrease to 0.25G per fort. This will make them less economically damaging to all types of players and the A.I. This pricing will ensure that forts will not be built in all provinces as it will still present some level of economic damage. "Gamer" Subtype players are still likely to delete many or all of their forts, but it is less rewarding and possibly more tactically punishing to do so. The chances of A.I. economic meltdown due to forts is greatly reduced.

3) Forts will prevent movement past themselves only. So if you move into a fort from any tile, your only move will be to go back to the tile from which you came while the fort stands. The idea will be to make a "wall" of forts. Their functionality on movement is more obvious, more realistic for "Roleplayer" subtypes. Forts on their own can be circumvented easily, by going around them. ZoC inconsistances are eliminated. Since the only available move into a hostile fort, is to move away from it into the previous tile, problems with movement from "fort to fort to fort" will also be eliminated. "Great wall of China" is now a thing.

4) A relief army arriving to assist a besieged allied Fort shall be considered the defender. Conferring useful tactical advantage for "Gamer" subtype players to exploit. This will likely also benefit other player types to some degree.

Other notes:
1) Simplification of existing rules is also a benefit.
2) Possible graphical change to show (an arrow?) from where an army attacked a fort (and thus the tile to which they may retreat).
3) If the attack is from a water tile and the transports are gone, do we wipe the attacker out? This would be the most consistant move, but also very punishing.
 
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Edmon

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It's not desirable to make forts wanted in every province. It would make siegeing people out a chore if they had forts literally everywhere. A wall or protected inner core can make sense and be tactically exploited. Once the wall is breached, the attacker then having access makes sense. You'd effectively want to set your country up much like the design of a castle, with layers of defences.
 
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Crenickator

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It's not desirable to make forts wanted in every province. It would make siegeing people out a chore if they had forts literally everywhere. A wall or protected inner core can make sense and be tactically exploited. Once the wall is breached, the attacker then having access makes sense. You'd effectively want to set your country up much like the design of a castle, with layers of defences.

Right. We don't want forts in every province. That's why I was saying have non-stackable bonuses for owned provinces within the zone of control. It would be counterproductive to build one in every provinces since the bonuses won't stack, but neither will you be completely out the money used to keep the fort active even if it never sees combat. But currently, anything but a capital fort is a waste of money. Under your system, while still a vast improvement, anything but a capital fort and border forts are a waste of money. Get what I mean? If you're the French and have forts built in Dauphin and Provence, you're going to instantly kill them the minute the border moves to Lucca and Parma. I'd like some incentive to keep the forts around, even if only in an optimal spread instead of a wall.

And in case you're confused, the ZoC will still no longer prevent enemies' passage. The ZoC mechanic will just be used for the auto-siege mechanic and dolling out a blanket fort bonus for adjacent provinces. An army that has breached our hypothetical French Lucca-Parma line can either seige a forted Provence or walk right on past via another province.

I just don't think the corelands should be completely undefended, and major cities even inside powerful kingdoms still had fortifications. In-game, there isn't any incentive for this, and I am simply wanting to change that. A blanket, unstackable ZoC bonus seems obvious, since it would mainly benefit lands surrounded by owned provinces, while the border forts would overlap each other and have half of their ZoC in enemy lands, diminishing the bonus significantly.
 

Edmon

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It's breaking rules of effective game design to make too many changes. You make some good points, but I'd want to impliment these changes first and then adjust fire from there.

Going at balance with a hammer is just bad practise, one that paradox often goes for granted, but I can't in good faith forsee the impacts from so many complex changes at once. Therefore, I'd say to you lets roll with what we have and go from there.
 
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bleakie

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I believe that a fort limit can be used to fix the proportion of forts in a country to an optimal value (about 20% under current fort rules, maybe 30% under the proposed changes). Then lower the cost of forts in general to balance it.

The reasoning is very similar to force limit; if you don't make forts expensive enough to be suboptimal, then it is difficult to prevent rich nations from spamming forts in too many provinces (imagine a Netherlands with every province fortified, and the effort needed to siege it down). By making extra forts exponentially more expensive above limit, then even the richest nation will eventually reach a point where building more forts becomes suboptimal.

I concede that it is lazy thinking, much like diplomatic relations, number of generals, land and naval force limit, colonial growth, etc. But this kind of normalization can effectively shape the game under a certain framework, and should definitely be considered as a last resort.
 

bleakie

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Then what you base that on? Number of provinces? Development?

To be honest I don't have a clear idea on it when I made my last post. The original thought is on number of provinces (you can see the percentages, which only makes sense in the context of number of provinces), but then it makes more sense to make it align with force limit, which means effective development plus a base number. And there is actually a third option, which is total development plus a base number.

I am more inclined to total development plus base number. The reason of this is to decouple the relation between autonomy and fort limit, and otherwise align fort limit with force limit in order not to complicate the balance between offence and defence.
 

Edmon

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I have been considering an idea that would fix the cap on attrition (currently locked to 5%)

Remove the cap and also remove the cap on artillery bonuses.

So every artillery adds +1 for a basic for, 2k artillery adds +2 for a Star Fort and so on.

You can get Forts down very quickly this way with huge masses of artillery (which is what the AI does) but it will cost you in massive attrition as well.
 

grommile

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I will be happy if they just add ability to change ZoC through defines file. Just one simple line : "Forts prevent moving to neighbouring provinces, y/n".
You can turn off ZoC by modding the fort buildings themselves.

This, of course, has the side effect of making them not revert control of adjacent unfortified provinces.
 
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holoween

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Its fairly obvious op has never played mp ever or hed realize that without forts a human player will just send 1k stacks everywhere and occupy your entire country and to counter it youd require a disproportionate ammount of troops making you significantly weaker at the main fights.
Sot this "Gamer" type should come with the qualifier singelplayer as every competent mp gamer will keep forts.
 

Edmon

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Its fairly obvious op has never played mp ever or hed realize that without forts a human player will just send 1k stacks everywhere and occupy your entire country and to counter it youd require a disproportionate ammount of troops making you significantly weaker at the main fights.
Sot this "Gamer" type should come with the qualifier singelplayer as every competent mp gamer will keep forts.

No, no they won't.
 

grommile

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Its fairly obvious op has never played mp ever or hed realize that without forts a human player will just send 1k stacks everywhere and occupy your entire country and to counter it youd require a disproportionate ammount of troops making you significantly weaker at the main fights.
Technical observation: Those 1k stacks have to sit still for at least thirty days (assuming no Defensiveness or Siege Ability bonuses) to do their job, and a 10k stack can just walk across the map instawiping them for zero casualties via the 10:1 rule.

Nontechnical observation: There are, in fact, MP players in this thread endorsing the OP's position.
 

holoween

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No, no they won't.
any actual reason for that rather than you just saying no?
any reason why the stated effects wouldnt happen?
because unless you can give a convincing argument on how to prevent the occupying by 1k stacks in any better way than using forts ill maintain that it would be stupid of any mp player to just delete all of them.
 

holoween

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Technical observation: Those 1k stacks have to sit still for at least thirty days (assuming no Defensiveness or Siege Ability bonuses) to do their job, and a 10k stack can just walk across the map instawiping them for zero casualties via the 10:1 rule.

Nontechnical observation: There are, in fact, MP players in this thread endorsing the OP's position.

yea and with 1k i got 10k out of the main fights that a great tradeoff especially if both sides have roughly equal numbers.
 

Edmon

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any actual reason for that rather than you just saying no?
any reason why the stated effects wouldnt happen?
because unless you can give a convincing argument on how to prevent the occupying by 1k stacks in any better way than using forts ill maintain that it would be stupid of any mp player to just delete all of them.

This has already been explained on the first page. I'd rather not tread old ground forever. The money a fort costs is better used for units to defend with.