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RossN

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Vincent Julien: Cool. :) And I am trying to keep things somewhat plausible!



1101311207_400.jpg
Above: John Nance Garner, Speaker of the Confederate States House of Representatives

XXVIII. The Speaker of the House (1933-34)

"To hell with the Constitution!" - Coleman L. Blease, 12th President of the Confederate States of America

The Democratic Party had controlled Congress for so long that it's lose of the majority almost passed unoticed in the wake of the shock Populist victory. Though still the largest party in both the Senate and the House the Democrats lay like a beached whale across the political landscape, their bulk and might concealing impotence and and fragility. No obvious leaders stood out.

The Whigs on the other hand - though painfully denied a House majority, had much more energy. Texan Whig John Nance Garner, House Minority Leader was much the favourite - as a moderate Whig he could likely secure the votes of moderate Democrats enabling him to become Speaker. In particular the Texocrats - Texan Democrats - though they disliked him personally would be quite prepared to back him as Speaker as the man who stood between Long and their money.

As it was Garner faced fierce opposition from his own party: William B. Bankhead, an Alabaman Whig was somewhat more radical than Garner (who felt the only thing wrong with the Whig Party was that he was not leading it) and ran against the Texan in the House election. In the end Garner managed to gain the title by a fairly close 88 votes in favour, the rest either for Bankhead or diehard conservative Democrats voting for old Prohibitionist Morris Sheppard.

John Nance Garner was both the first Whig Speaker since the 19th century and the first Texan Whig since President Culberson to hold such an important national position. Even if the Party had been out of power for twelve long years - and had at least another six to go - they now finally occupied a position of national influence once more.

In June 1934 the first piece of Long's platform came before the House: the establishment of an old age pension with the beginning qualifying age set at 60. Given that even the most diehard Democrat would have difficulty claiming this as an act of a would be Stalin it was clear that the new President intended to keep his most controversial legislation for the second act.

With the backing of the Populists, the Whigs and a few of the more radical Democrats the pensions went through.
 

stnylan

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Clever move by Long. You move pebbles before you move mountains.
 

GeneralHannibal

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I like Long, but I doubt he'll keep democracy for long.
 

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I think that slavery could have been abolished by the 20th cent. The war was fought ostensibly for 'states rights' even though that really meant slavery. The same rhetoric could be used later when the economic pressure as well as Brittanic influence made slavery less tenable. I am comfortable with the abolition according to this timeline.
 

KanaX

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I think everyone should just forget the "I think slavery should have abolished this or that way or this or that year" question and get on with their lives. In this AAR slavery was abolished the way RossN saw fit and it should be enough.
 

unmerged(51253)

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Thanks KanaX, I was hoping someone would step up.

If RossN said it happened, then it did, there shouldn't even be a single foul word about historical implausability. No one picks on Cthulthu and Mosby for having aliens in their AARs, that's pretty implausable. I don't see anybody attacking the musicals for being non-historical. No reason to single out RossN here for slavery.

That said, I'm loving the updates, RossN, please, keep it up.
 

Vann the Red

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I don't see it as picking, Burke and KanaX. RossN said from the beginning that there would be no slavery (thank goodness). Some, perhaps, stuck around largely to see how that came about. Questioning the method doesn't constitute an attack on the author, in my mind.

RossN has a great story going and folks just want to help him minimize the holes.

Vann
 

J. Passepartout

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I happen to agree that the abolition of slavery would have happened differently, but I also think that givien RossN's admitted qualm's about keeping slavery until 1936 made the way he had it abolished within the realm of suspension of disbelief.
 

Specialist290

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No problem w/ the way he's written things here. In fact, as a native Southerner myself, I have to say that I heartily condone this AAR :) I also agree w/ the general sentiment that a discussion of the implications of an independent CSA on the abolition of slavery in the South is probably best discussed in the history section of the forum, rather than in this AAR thread.

(My home state, incidentally, in answer to a question asked earlier, is Tennessee.)
 

RossN

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Wow this has certainly sparked off a lot of discussion! :eek:o

Thank you for the support guys and your affirmation. To be honest in retrospect I feel I may have placed the abolition of slavery milestone a little too early but the divide between the 19th and 20th century seemed very important for a few irrational reasons. It is possible to play a Vicky game as the Confederates and have some aspects of Southern culture I genuinely admire - chivalry and élan and a romantic attatchment to doomed causes because - in a weird, irrational way the 19th century is "ancient history" in a way even the Edwardian Age is not. In fact I was very tempted to a Vicky Confederate AAR, but felt the time was right to try something for Hearts of Iron 2.

In the HoI2 timeframe though it really feels part of the modern era and I couldn't play a slave state in the 30's, so I had it abolished as early as possible. I'm glad to see that people are willing to accept it for story purposes and I'll certainly try and keep things plausible in future.

Again thanks for all your comments, it really makes the AAR game worth it! :)

Oh strange to think that we have now at last reached the actual start of the game after some 300 posts! I'll probably do one more pre-1936 post then do a rundown of the Confederate States circa January 1 1936.
 

RossN

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Specialist290 said:
No problem w/ the way he's written things here. In fact, as a native Southerner myself, I have to say that I heartily condone this AAR :) I also agree w/ the general sentiment that a discussion of the implications of an independent CSA on the abolition of slavery in the South is probably best discussed in the history section of the forum, rather than in this AAR thread.

(My home state, incidentally, in answer to a question asked earlier, is Tennessee.)

Very cool, please feel free to drop in anything Southern related you can think of. :) I'm afraid my experience and expertise is a little narrow: I've only ever been to Florida and I hear that's a little different from the rest of the South.

In this timeline I've tended to go with Tennessee as being a moderate Whig state in recognition of it's Constitutional Union Party past, lateness in joining the Confederacy and also having a substantial urban population - in 1936 three of the top twenty cities in Dixie are in Tennessee (only Texas has more). Hope that's ok!
 

Specialist290

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Well, I can't be certain on the rest of the state, but my area of TN (the Appalachian eastern part) has always been a bit on the right side of the political scale (probably translates into Social Conservative in game terms), so I'd say they fit pretty well w/ the Whigs.
 

unmerged(52507)

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I think Rosco is going good but I also think it was ok for those guys to question the timeline a bit. That resulting discussion is part of why I like reading the AARs in the first place. Good defence too Ross. Keep it up.
 
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Long is distressingly competent so far. :(

Director said:
Russia ran factories with serfs in conditions little better than slavery, and the Confederacy used slave labor in factories during the Civil War.

"Industrialisation" would, by any reasonable use of the word, mean widespread growth of industry across soceity; not two or three factories.

Director said:
Eliminating 'de jure' slavery would probably be done for two reasons: foreign pressure (especially from Britain)

I'm not sure Britain would have particularly cared about slavery so much as to pressure the Confederacy into dropping it. We are bringing in moral considerations here into the minds of men who were, in fact, dedicated to realpolitik.

There was a strong distaste for slavery in western Europe, but then again, there was a distaste for the backwardness and autocracy of Russia in western Europe, yet this didn't prevent them from allying with Russia through treaty agreements in the run-up to the Great War.

I think the economic argument is more persuasive, but I have my doubts that it would have come sooner rather than later; the planters did after all, go to war for it's preservation, and believed that it was not merely an economic institution, but, also, a moral one. It was a cultural and political institution in the south just as much as it was an economic one, and it would have been used as a defining cultural symbol of the South's individuality and nationhood after any successful war; it would very probably have become a semi-sacred part of the Confederacy's heritage and constitution in the same way that many Americans today approach the issue of gun ownership.

Any attempt to completely abolish it on a legal basis whilst it was still economically useful - as opposed to it slowly becoming a dead letter through social and economic changes - would have been heated and protracted, if not actually doomed to failure.
 
Last edited:

J. Passepartout

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RossN said:
Very cool, please feel free to drop in anything Southern related you can think of. :) I'm afraid my experience and expertise is a little narrow: I've only ever been to Florida and I hear that's a little different from the rest of the South.

I am not a southernor but Florida is indeed where all the elderly Yankees go when they retire. Not sure how the fact that Florida is in a different country would affect this, so feel free to ignore my comment. :)
 

RossN

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I've been thinking more on the slavery issue and might suggest a compromise of sorts.

So far emancipation has had relatively little political impact (because, sadly, even free African Americans are not going to have much political clout in Dixie), so I suppose if there was a consensus I could retroactively change the date of abolition to 1918, in recognition of both increased industry and their work on the homefront during the war (when White Southerners were serving overseas and their jobs needed to be replaced).

I could also return voting rights to a matter for individual states - liberal Sonora might allow African Americans to vote but conservative South Carolina might not. What do you guys feel? I'm willing to go in either direction (at least slavery is abolished either way).
 

stnylan

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Personally I would say keep things the way they are. History is replete with implausible things happening, and unexpected movements coming to fruition. What you have portrayed is well within the bounds of suspended disbelief, so keep it ;)
 

Specialist290

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stnylan said:
Personally I would say keep things the way they are. History is replete with implausible things happening, and unexpected movements coming to fruition. What you have portrayed is well within the bounds of suspended disbelief, so keep it ;)

Agree. No need to change something simply because one or two people don't like it, and while I personally think it may have been a little improbable myself, there's nothing that says it absolutely couldn't have happened.