Density and Wealth

[zulu354]

Hi there.

As I am just got aware of the new planed DLC and read something about wealth there, my question is: Will we get a wealth system like Sim City 4 and finally have districts from upper class, worker quatiers or slums wich will be visual due dirt and missing maintenance at the building and streets?

Speaking of SC 4, I would really love to have a stage between low and high density zones...Would help a much, I think.

 

[Promethian]

The level of the buildings already simulates this. Level 1 is low income poor living. Level 5 is high income high living.

 

[zulu354]

The level of the buildings already simulates this. Level 1 is low income poor living. Level 5 is high income high living.

Not in the sense I would like to see. For exemple:
You have a district with wealthy people, schools, jobs, attractions close by. But while you start focusing on other parts of the town, maybe the commerce buildings and industry moves away or lowers their level. The wealthy people will move to other places, may become poor and as the money for maintaining the building is missing, they start to decay. Poor people won't start constructing new buildings just with a lower level. Saying this, low level buildings in game just look too tidy as well. Nothing I would compare to a low wealth neighbour hood.

Sim City 4 (I still just cab recommend to have a look, to understand what I mean) works with land value, wich is influenced by several factors. So you might get a shiny bright downtown area (just like Cities Skylines) or some really nice neighbour hoods in the suburbs (also like Cities Skylines) as well as tenement blocks, dirty parks and low wealth comercial areas (not like Cities Skylines). Speaking for SC4 it really made neat and realistic looking cities (not telling, Skylines Cities can not look realistic and neat). It really felt like a city is growing and living in SC4 and not only shiny bright.

Btw: low value land areas in SC 4 had also higher crime problems and things like this. So it wasn't just pure cosmetic.

Edit & PS:
The description above about the development to a low wealth area works in the opposite direction as well. You can let shine a former wealthy and now poor area in former splendour.

 

[medopu]

Hm... this is wierd. Are you sure you're talking about cities skylines? I don't know how well you know the mechanics of the game?

Cities skylines building levels is bound closely to land value (you can check that in the infographics) and these levels represent building "wealth status" like simcity 4. For example, high density blocks will remain low-wealth / low-level if there are not enough city services and areas/buildings that boost the land value.

Cities:skylines crime is bound to unemployment status rather than 'wealth' of a certain area.

 

[jcitron]

I know what @zulu354 means by this. The so-called "poor" neighborhoods are still neat and clean with nice-looking houses and buildings. In real life they would be more rundown, the vehicles wouldn't be Porches, BMWs and Mercedes in the driveways, and there should be more trash piled up. As he says in SC4 the crime rate is much higher, and I think there was a bigger chance of fire as well.

I agree that there's no reason why a formerly poor area couldn't become higher wealth due to updates and renewal including adding in more parks, and more services. The same with a wealthy area becoming poor as the economy changes, or people move out/die due to disease.

This latter point brings up something else. What about a varying economy? The economy right now is pretty steady with little or no variation. If a city is exporting goods, for example, this should also be reflective of the city's surroundings. Off map the economy could be slowing down or booming, which can decrease or increase our business revenue and affect our local economy as well.

Suppose one of our cities is in an area that's booming. The profits are raking in along with an increase in tax revenue for the city. There is an ever increased need for workers, which in turn brings in more and more immigrants, not necessarily foreign, to live and work in our own city. This can go on for months, or years in Cities: Skylines time. Then slowly the numbers start to drop down. First there are small layoffs and as the demand wanes. Then the company profits start dropping more and more and factories close, which causes people to move away and our own city growth calms down and slows to a crawl. This slowdown could also last in Cities months time and this could have a devastating effect on the local economy and city revenues, which could cause us to try various things to boost our coffers, or the time period could be brief and only a small slowdown.

The economic model could be optional of course because not everyone would want to have a fluctuating ecosystem to build in.

 

[Teldaril]

One problem is that there is no need for low wealth population in the current game. Everything works with highly educated people. Industry just demands people and the graduates take the low education jobs if there are not enough high education ones. Thus it might be "wasted" time to implement special low wealth optics when this time could be spent to implement and enhance gameplay.

Thus it might need an adjustment to the whole industry, education and how people take their jobs to justify this eye candy.

 

[medopu]

Everything works with highly educated people.

That's not really a game-mechanics problem, that's exactly how the real life works too. The real problem i see is that education itself is simply too cheap to maintain in this game, that's why players usually have a shortage of non-educated people. In other words, we're all able to afford plopping down endless amount of schools, fire stations and police stations, that attract high-wealth residents to the city for very little extra maintenance cost.

I am sure that most of the complaints (apart from the "cosmetic looks of rundown areas") expressed in this thread could be addressed simply by ramping up the maintenance costs of all city services, from schools to police stations. That way, players would have no other choice but to prioritize certain city districts while having insufficient funds to "develop" all the other city areas.
This way, Cims in undeveloped areas would remain uneducated, have less employment oppurtunities and cause more crime (due to their unemployment), which would be further exacerbated by the lack of police stations in their vicinity, since these services would be much more costly to build and operate. This all has an impact on land value and income from taxing the companies and residents living there.

 

[Teldaril]

That's not really a game-mechanics problem [...]

I am sure that most of the complaints (apart from the "cosmetic looks of rundown areas") expressed in this thread could be addressed simply by ramping up the maintenance costs of all city services, from schools to police stations.

Isn't that a gameplay mechanic?

Edit: The Hadron Collider, Medical Center and Eden Project came to my mind. They would need adjustments, too.

 

[medopu]

Isn't that a gameplay mechanic?

My argument was, that over-education itself isn't problematic per se. However, creating an abundance of education does appear to be quite inexpensive in the game. Even with "hard mode" enabled.

Landmark costs and rewards would therefore also need to be adjusted, you're right.

 

[zulu354]

My argument was, that over-education itself isn't problematic per se.

Disagree with your opinion. There are jobs, no well educated man would do, or did you ever see an professor or master or bachelor working on constructions sites as workers? I am not mentioning, that workers are under educated or stupid, but I bet you would not find a Doctor who is plumbing aby toilette. ;-)

 

[medopu]

but I bet you would not find a Doctor who is plumbing aby toilette. ;-)

Well yes, that's because in real life, the system damn right makes sure, that financing higher education "pays-off" by providing the necessary jobs for the qualified workforce (or offering it to the market).
This is because in real life, higher education costs a lot of money... and money has to be optimised. Cities skylines lets you "run wild" with the high schools and universities while making "mad cash" with small towns over-educating everyone for little money. Not to mention the unreasonably high amount of people that actually finish the school and not drop out as opposed to real life.

So basically, it doesn't matter if you're a doctor in cities skylines, so are thousands of other guys graduating from universities that cost the city "peanuts". You'll have to find your job elsewherey since your diploma isn't worth much, when there's so many people graduating.

 

[MarkJohnson]

This was designed to be a city painter. There was no intention to make this game a real simulatoir. Some realism is nice, but they weant to keep it simple. This was the reason SC4 was a dismal failure at launch. It was deemed too complicated and just not friendly enough fvor the average person to play. If it wasn't for a few die hard modders hacking up the game to what it is today, SC4 would have faded away. Not to mention Simcity societies (the real SC5) was seemed too small, then SC2013 even smaller.

But this game wanted to hit the sweet spot. Fancy and overly easy. Too bad the expansions didn't keep up this plan. The workshop was the biggest thing, but has becvome as much of a curse with the contant update breaking games and discouraging users. Now it's starting to get complicated and turning off a lot of users. Maybe CSL xbox will renew interest?

 

[zulu354]

Sorry, but in my opinion SC 4 wasn't that complicated. It was even more accessible than several p-dox games in my opinion. Calling Cities complicated is nothing but a joke - sorry...

Years ago there were much more games, more complex than today. Thanks to Smartphone games to go, more games become casual, as it sells more than a complex game, because you have to think in the latter one. But this is another story and not my intention to discuss here.

Fact is still: in my opinion the cities in Skylines are far too shiny and bright and neat...

 

[jcitron]

Sorry, but in my opinion SC 4 wasn't that complicated. It was even more accessible than several p-dox games in my opinion. Calling Cities complicated is nothing but a joke - sorry...

Years ago there were much more games, more complex than today. Thanks to Smartphone games to go, more games become casual, as it sells more than a complex game, because you have to think in the latter one. But this is another story and not my intention to discuss here.

Fact is still: in my opinion the cities in Skylines are far too shiny and bright and neat...

Spot on about the games. Most today are lite on content but high on the eye candy. I guess we can't have both, not that I don't enjoy using Cities as it is, but I too would like some of the dirt and grime, poverty, and crime which goes along with a city long with the opulent and fancy areas as well. It's these contrasts which make a city like a living organism.

 

[elljawa]

Agreed. Buildings should upgrade in two directions, one based on land value, one based on demand to live there. You could have fancy condos or tenements, trailer parks or mansions, and anything in between. Right now there is no easy way to see where the demand to live is, and buildings tend to upgrade in both directions when they upgrade (meaning you will be unlikely to get lakeside mansions, and unlikely to get huge tenements, unless you have mods). To me, this is one of the games few failings.

 

[metacritical]

demand is where the services are, if you want to increase demand build more parks, schools, health care, transport links etc. this also increases land value, so your two points have now been condensed into one. if you want a mansion lake side, build parks nearby. if you want huge tenements, don't provide any services.

 

[jcitron]

demand is where the services are, if you want to increase demand build more parks, schools, health care, transport links etc. this also increases land value, so your two points have now been condensed into one. if you want a mansion lake side, build parks nearby. if you want huge tenements, don't provide any services.

This works in theory, but there is little discernable difference between the two buildings or vehicles in the driveway, or the textures around the area or on the buildings. If for example, the lower income areas had smaller houses on poorly maintained properties, and higher crime in the area, then this would make a big difference. Sadly the game doesn't do this unless someone makes a mod or a district which will create this condition.

 

[ziggyzack1234]

Speaking of SC 4, I would really love to have a stage between low and high density zones...Would help a much, I think.

Finally someone brought this up. I don't want my little single family next to the damn Willis tower. We need to put things like tri-deckers in between to clean up the skyline.

 

[ristosal]

Finally someone brought this up. I don't want my little single family next to the damn Willis tower. We need to put things like tri-deckers in between to clean up the skyline.

As far as residential zones go this is kind of possible already, since density in this game is anything between 1 and 26 households per building. High density district style without massive highrises for 6-9 tile buildings would do the trick, it's all a matter of graphics.

 

[Erocco]

I love Cities Skylines but density and wealth are the my two biggest disappointments of the game as they stand now.

Density:

Indeed we need medium density for residential and commercial zones and may I add we need two types of density (high and low) for industrial and office zones.

• Low density residential/commercial/industrial and office zones - minimum 1x1 tiles and maximum 4x4 tiles
  • Residential will consist of single to three story houses
  • Commercial will consist of single to two story retail stores like mom and pop shops, gas stations, corner stores, small supermarkets etc.
  • Industrial will consist of warehouses, small distribution centers, small factories etc.
  • Office will consist of single to five story offices (or there about)
• Medium density residential and commercial - minimum 2x2 tiles and maximum 5x5 tiles
  • Residential will consist low rise to mid rise buildings somewhere in the neighborhood of three to eight stories
  • Commercial will consist of three to five storey retail stores, medium sized shopping centers, large supermarkets etc.
• High density residential/commercial/industrial and office - minimum 3x3 tiles and maximum 6x6 tiles
  • Residential will consist of high rises nine+ stories
  • Commercial will consist of six+ storey retail stores, large sized shopping centers
  • Industrial will consist of large warehouses, large distribution centers, large factories etc.
  • Office will consist of six+ story offices

I work for a construction developer and over the past 20 years I've seen countless building prints. A typical footprint for a residential high rise is 10,000sf or just under 1,000m³. A typical footprint for an average house is 1,000sf or just under 100m³. In CS a house takes the same area as a 30 storey tower! So this is my reasoning for suggesting to change the number of tiles for the different zone densities. This will still work with all the buildings in CS and also all the modded buildings so nothing can go to waste. Some of them may have to be allocated to a different zone density. For example some low commercial buildings in the game when they reach level 3 are more than five stories high. That type of building will be moved to the medium commercial zone.