Denmark problems and ways to fix them.

[FLESH HUNTER]

I played Denmark a months ago but...Denmark if anyone rivals you at the start restart the game...Because it will most likely be A)England B)The Teutonic order C)Scotland or D)Some other great power...And Sweden at the start will get support almost instantly hitting 100% independence and declaring war next month...

 

[TheDungen]

The main problem doesn't seem to be Sweden. The Danes don't have any strong allies to lean on and Norway, their loyal PU, are quite weak. Meanwhile on top of Sweden, they have a rich enemy to their south that didn't exist historically.

Denmark should have historical friends with england the the neatherlands. sweden should have an event that gives them historical friends with france (but only if they end up on the same side in the 30 years wars coalitions)

 

[FLESH HUNTER]

So...Does anyone know the opening Denmark move? Do I try to ally everyone I possibly could to avoid Sweden hitting 400% stronger then you?(AKA...You are about to die)

 

[Salje]

From what I have seen, the problems seems to be that Denmark can't get any decent alliances, whereas Sweden always gains either Poland or Lithuania(or both) and sometimes Muscovy and France or Austria.

 

[FLESH HUNTER]

I haven't seen Muscovy or France or Austria I have seen England...Scotland...The Teutonic Order, and Lithuania...Two minutes ago(Which is the moment I stopped trying...)

 

[TheDungen]

From what I have seen, the problems seems to be that Denmark can't get any decent alliances, whereas Sweden always gains either Poland or Lithuania(or both) and sometimes Muscovy and France or Austria.

Sweden usually gets scotland novgorod the hansa or the teutonic order to support their independence I've never seen any of the ones you mention unless there is a player playing them.

Like I've said though giving denmark some of their historical friends as historical friends should help (England and the neatherlands).

 

[TingJonKi]

in player hands though the swedish independance war is OP in that you can easily snatch a lot of land from allies by winning without any unjustified demands

 

[Dustman]

Swedish NIs are insanely strong to start with, they have wonderful production, huge number of ports to build naval limits up and can get several nice friends to support their independence. If Denmark got no strong allies and Sweden gets a bit of time to build some navies, war is tilted into Swedish favor. If Denmark allies with Poland who PU-d Lithuania, Sweden is pretty much a history. Danish NIs aren't much for a conquest game, but they are very good for trade and colonization. Problem is that AI doesn't utilize it and focus on bizarre expansion into poor Estonia or overly complicated Northern Germany, too strong to deal with early on due to HRE.

Although people complain about poor Denmark, Sweden vs. Denmark/Norway is an even fight, unless one of the sides manages to acquire a good shock general. With 1.13 strong Denmark is far more usual sight than ever before.

 

[RyanX]

Swedish NIs are insanely strong to start with, they have wonderful production, huge number of ports to build naval limits up and can get several nice friends to support their independence. If Denmark got no strong allies and Sweden gets a bit of time to build some navies, war is tilted into Swedish favor. If Denmark allies with Poland who PU-d Lithuania, Sweden is pretty much a history. Danish NIs aren't much for a conquest game, but they are very good for trade and colonization. Problem is that AI doesn't utilize it and focus on bizarre expansion into poor Estonia or overly complicated Northern Germany, too strong to deal with early on due to HRE.

Although people complain about poor Denmark, Sweden vs. Denmark/Norway is an even fight, unless one of the sides manages to acquire a good shock general. With 1.13 strong Denmark is far more usual sight than ever before.

Sweden doesn't tend to leave Denmark with positive prestige and even if they do, Hansa sure as heck won't. For all of Denmark's ideas and opportunities, the gist remains the same: One lost war spells the end for Denmark.

 

[A_Dane]

Another issue is how PU's power relations are calculated as well - I can't for the life of me get it

Why are the Danish cores wrong? Sweden owned the area 1332-1360 (some parts from 1342), so they should still be cores in 1444 shouldn't they? The Norwegian cores are mostly nonsense though, but they are hardly the reason for imbalances. I don't think the Scandinavian situation could ever be properly balanced, and since the developers are Swedish that is tough luck for the Danish. Regardless of who wins Scandinavia is hardly ever the big threat in any campaign, and it probably shouldn't be.

They didn't strictly speaking own them..

a rather large part of Denmark were pawned off to some guys from Holstein & the Hansa states, who then sold the pawn of Skåne (and Halland+ Blekinge if I remember correctly) to Sweden.

When Denmark was reunited by Valdemar Atterdag and Sweden refused to negotiate he went and smacked them around a bit.

I don't really think it justify cores right off the bat.

 

[Rainbow Mirage]

I think it'd help Denmark if Holstein's land was given to them at start with semi-high autonomy. Similar to how France's vassals just became release-able tags.

That way they should be big enough to start integration of Norway within a few years of game start. That'd also free up another relationship slot for another ally.

 

[vicotnik]

They didn't strictly speaking own them..

a rather large part of Denmark were pawned off to some guys from Holstein & the Hansa states, who then sold the pawn of Skåne (and Halland+ Blekinge if I remember correctly) to Sweden.

When Denmark was reunited by Valdemar Atterdag and Sweden refused to negotiate he went and smacked them around a bit.

I don't really think it justify cores right off the bat.

In game terms they certainly did own them, and if not then who did? Denmark essentially ceased to exist, and the overlords who were viewed as illegitimate sold the Scanian lands to the Kingdom of Sweden which was the only possible legitimate ruler of the area at the time. That Denmark made a come back as a country and reconquered the area doesn't change the fact that in game terms the cores should be there.

 

[ThePatriotOfDreumel]

In game terms they certainly did own them, and if not then who did? Denmark essentially ceased to exist, and the overlords who were viewed as illegitimate sold the Scanian lands to the Kingdom of Sweden which was the only possible legitimate ruler of the area at the time. That Denmark made a come back as a country and reconquered the area doesn't change the fact that in game terms the cores should be there.

A swede trying to defend Swedish cores. How unbiased

 

[TheDungen]

A swede trying to defend Swedish cores. How unbiased

Compared to the Dane called a dane arguing that they shouldn't be there?

 

[raikaria]

It all starts with Sweden, who has historical rival (Which gives +50% liberty desire) with Denmark, immediatly wants independence, Declares war(usually with Teutonic help).

Really? I usually see their independance supported by Novogrod and one of Scotland [Scotland wants the Norwegian provinces]/England [Rivaled Denmark]. I've never seen the Teutons support them. I've even seen Pomerania support once.

Meanwhile; AI Denmark is absolutely awful at making friends. I've seen them go the whole game with no allies. I mean they start with their dynasty shared with Bavaria and The Palatine. You'd think they would at least be able to ally one of those rather easily; or they would ally Brandenburg due to proximity and common dislike of Teutons/Pomerania/Hansa.

It's not that the Danes cannot make decent allies. Even Brandy could turn the tide against say; Sweden+Novo [Or Scotland]. It's that the Danes... just DON'T. Admittedly it dosen't help that 3/4 of their diplo slots are eaten by their PU's and Holstein, but still.

The one time I saw the Danes make an ally it was England. And that was because A: England didn't rival Denmark and B: They allied once the war had kicked off; and Scotland was supporting Independence; so they got to smack Scotland without making France punch them.

 

[A_Dane]

In game terms they certainly did own them, and if not then who did? Denmark essentially ceased to exist, and the overlords who were viewed as illegitimate sold the Scanian lands to the Kingdom of Sweden which was the only possible legitimate ruler of the area at the time. That Denmark made a come back as a country and reconquered the area doesn't change the fact that in game terms the cores should be there.

I was talking in the sense of how normal ownership applies - in game terms, yes Sweden would have owned them. But whether that is grounds for them being cores (I think not, personally), is what I wanted to question. - it's not like it's an issue that came up again until 300 years later...

those provinces being claims would make sense though

 

[ThePatriotOfDreumel]

Really? I usually see their independance supported by Novogrod and one of Scotland [Scotland wants the Norwegian provinces]/England [Rivaled Denmark]. I've never seen the Teutons support them. I've even seen Pomerania support once.

Meanwhile; AI Denmark is absolutely awful at making friends. I've seen them go the whole game with no allies. I mean they start with their dynasty shared with Bavaria and The Palatine. You'd think they would at least be able to ally one of those rather easily; or they would ally Brandenburg due to proximity and common dislike of Teutons/Pomerania/Hansa.

It's not that the Danes cannot make decent allies. Even Brandy could turn the tide against say; Sweden+Novo [Or Scotland]. It's that the Danes... just DON'T. Admittedly it dosen't help that 3/4 of their diplo slots are eaten by their PU's and Holstein, but still.

The one time I saw the Danes make an ally it was England. And that was because A: England didn't rival Denmark and B: They allied once the war had kicked off; and Scotland was supporting Independence; so they got to smack Scotland without making France punch them.

I think that the problem is that AI always keep a diplo slot open for the player. Since Denmark has only 1 slot left, it will be reserved for, say, Ming.

 

[raikaria]

I think that the problem is that AI always keep a diplo slot open for the player. Since Denmark has only 1 slot left, it will be reserved for, say, Ming.

AI gets a free diplo slot reserved for the player; so they have 5 instead of 4.

 

[ThePatriotOfDreumel]

AI gets a free diplo slot reserved for the player; so they have 5 instead of 4.

Then Denmark is a complete idiot.

 

[Incompetent]

Having Sweden *start* as historical rival to Denmark is a bit much I think. The country's size relative to Denmark and the overlapping cores are quite enough to make the Kalmar Union unstable without this additional hard-wired obstacle to good relations. Once Sweden is independent, by all means give Denmark and Sweden the historical rival modifier. Maybe also have events every so often that represent historical Swedish rebellions against Danish rule. But don't make Sweden 100% guaranteed disloyal/rebellious from day one.