Denmark is stille a pathentic state

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DukeofSerbia

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It isn´t a bad range of outcomes to such a nation. Could be worse, like 99% chance of bad outcomes.

Also, Sweden declaring independence war early is a double edged sword, as Denmark can make allies and call them into the war. The result is Sweden losing the war AND provinces (I know, I did it myself playing as Denmark). If Sweden goes to war with only Novgorod supporting it usually ends up bad, with Muscowy declaring on Novgorod and Denmark winning and asking for land.

So while fixing the bug is nice, it does NOT mean the range of outcomes will be changed a lot.
It is bad. Denmark is like Balkan countries except they don't get annexed by Ottomans. It's just matter of time.

Also, in those observe games Sweden actually a lot of time gets support for independence from both England and Muscovy. It's game over for Denmark as they get steam rolled and because they are outside HRE, they are quickly attacked by some 4-5 HRE minors alliance who finished them after SWE/ENG/MOS steamroll.
 
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Panzerschiffe

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Denmark is fun to play though because they have different possibilities. In the AI's hands, it just seems to get piled on and fails constantly. In my latest game, Poland has destroyed them and now controls the danish territories.
 

MacDuffin

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Forgive my ignorance, but isn't this really the time period where Denmark began to lose its grip on power? Losing Sweden, unable to push its influence in the 30 years war, and ultimately losing Norway by EU4's timeline?
I'm not trying to be insulting, but I thought Denmark was fighting an uphill battle throughout this entire timeline.
Please do correct me if I'm wrong.
 
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Red_warning

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Forgive my ignorance, but isn't this really the time period where Denmark began to lose its grip on power? Losing Sweden, unable to push its influence in the 30 years war, and ultimately losing Norway by EU4's timeline?
I'm not trying to be insulting, but I thought Denmark was fighting an uphill battle throughout this entire timeline.
Please do correct me if I'm wrong.

Denmark lost a lot of influence during this time period but was still a considerable power and a thorn in Sweden's side. In the Scanian war, where Denmark tried to reconquer Scania, Sweden had some serious issues repelling the Danish invaders who had captured several towns and castles along the shoreline. It was one of the bloodiest wars in Nordic history and only under threat of French involvement on the Swedish side did the Danes finally retreat from their fortifications. This took place in 1675 - 1679, and Denmark is usually annexed by then in EU4.
 
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DS_McWerp

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The issue isn't that Sweden breaks free. It's that Denmark gets eaten by a mix of hre minors even in the games where it manages to survive Swedish aggression.

The issue is naval AI. Sweden should never manage to siege sjaelland, but naval AI lets them walk right onto the island and take it. Sweden should be able to take over skane, blekinge, and Halland, but should have way more trouble than it currently does taking the islands/Jutland.

Of course, I remember when the Danes were integrating Sweden AND Norway EVERY game. So this is obviously just really hard to balance right. Maybe put more of their development in the islands/Jutland and less in skane?
 
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Beagá

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Also, in those observe games Sweden actually a lot of time gets support for independence from both England and Muscovy. It's game over for Denmark as they get steam rolled and because they are outside HRE, they are quickly attacked by some 4-5 HRE minors alliance who finished them after SWE/ENG/MOS steamroll.

I know what can happen in the game. That wasn´t the point. Denmark is the kind of nation that had a chance of being irrelevant from foreign powers. Make Denmark chance of succeeding 20 to 30% then, but making it succeeding 90% is more wrong than 10% time, IMO. Also let´s define what is succeeding, too. Forming Scandinavia? Being bigger tharn Russia?

I personally wouldn´t change the Baltic balance. I think it´s fine. There are bigger issues, like austrian blobs.
 
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Wagonlitz

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It isn´t a bad range of outcomes to such a nation.
Because it is horribly ahistorical.
unable to push its influence in the 30 years war
That is not completely true. Sure we got beaten, but that was due to facing the combined might of the entire Catholic side; something Sweden didn't when they entered around a decade later. Had Christian IV been better at judging when to enter it could well have been us and not Sweden who were decisive in the 30 years war.
I'm not trying to be insulting, but I thought Denmark was fighting an uphill battle throughout this entire timeline.
No, not really. As late as the Kalmar war around 1610 we were still the dominated Sweden. Sure Sweden had managed to break free earlier, but that to a good extent was due to how Christian II managed to get deposed by the Danish nobles after having cut off the heads of the Swedish ones.
What really harmed us was the German invasion of Jutland in 1623; that sacking was so thorough that a previously prosperous province got poor (and the invasion was still remembered by the common people several centuries later...). When Sweden then attacked us in 1645 (for not doing enough for the protestant side as far as I remember) Jutland still hadn't recovered and we were in trouble.
Then in 1658 we get to war again (can't remember who declared) and aren't doing too badly until a fluke where the Swedes not only decides to walk across the ice of Storebælt, but said ice actually doesn't break.
That leads to the loss of Skåneland which turns the balance; it changes from Denmark being more powerful and populous than Sweden to Sweden being much more populous and powerful---plus Sweden gains dominance of the Baltic which we had held previously. Together with Norway we can still pretty evenly match Sweden though.
The 1700s are purely prosperous times after the Great Nordic War.
And in 1801 we have the second largest fleet in Europe and the UK is genuinely scared of it; hence why they steal it when they receive (false) information about it being close to joining the French.
And yes we lost Norway inside the game period---but only by 6 years. And that situation is a really special one which you won't see in most games.
only under threat of French involvement on the Swedish side did the Danes finally retreat from their fortifications.
In fact hadn't it been for the French demanding status quo ante bellum then we probably would have reconquered part of Skåne; perhaps even most of Skåne. (Halland and Blekinge weren't feasible to reconquer in that war.)
Sweden should be able to take over skane, blekinge, and Halland
Why? A fluke should be easily reproduced? Not to mention that that Swedish stunt probably wouldn't have succeeded at any time, but in the middle of the little ice age (which was what they did it); storebælt fully frozen isn't normal at all.
Maybe put more of their development in the islands/Jutland and less in skane?
Would be ahistorical; Skåne was a very rich province and you couldn't be elected king unless you had the support of the thing in Lund.
 
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Beagá

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You aren´t really using going to use the "it´s not historical" card to this game, are you? Because then we have a rather big list of issues...
 
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Wagonlitz

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I know what can happen in the game. That wasn´t the point. Denmark is the kind of nation that had a chance of being irrelevant from foreign powers. Make Denmark chance of succeeding 20 to 30% then, but making it succeeding 90% is more wrong than 10% time, IMO. Also let´s define what is succeeding, too. Forming Scandinavia? Being bigger tharn Russia?

I personally wouldn´t change the Baltic balance. I think it´s fine. There are bigger issues, like austrian blobs.
Why should there only be 20-30% chance of Denmark surviving? In 1444 things were looking really good for us. The only time we were even close to disappearing was during a serious fluke; which most likely is impossible to recreate at any time, but the 1660s due to the climate.
 
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You aren´t really using going to use the "it´s not historical" card to this game, are you? Because then we have a rather big list of issues...
Just because there are several ahistorical things doesn't mean we should make it more ahistorical or be happy about that situation.
 
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Jaol

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Forgive my ignorance, but isn't this really the time period where Denmark began to lose its grip on power? Losing Sweden, unable to push its influence in the 30 years war, and ultimately losing Norway by EU4's timeline?
I'm not trying to be insulting, but I thought Denmark was fighting an uphill battle throughout this entire timeline.
Please do correct me if I'm wrong.
Yeah, but in the game everything happens faster and is worse 90+% of the time. E.g. instead of losing Sweden around 1520s and Norway around 1810, Denmark typically loses both in the first 25 years of the game.
 

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Just because there are several ahistorical things doesn't mean we should make it more ahistorical or be happy about that situation.

Ultimatedly pointless if a goal of outcomes isn´t set.

As I said before I´d rather see 1/10 danish games succeding than 9/10. Subjective? Yes, but I´d yet to see someone using a better argument to say what the acceptable range of outcomes for Denmark is in a hands off game.

Hell, it´s needed even to DEFINE what is a "succesful" danish game. Integrating both PUs? Having colonies too? Etc etc.
 
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Yeah, but in the game everything happens faster and is worse 90+% of the time. E.g. instead of losing Sweden around 1520s and Norway around 1810, Denmark typically loses both in the first 25 years of the game.
Yeah I know; and that is highly problematic.
Because while losing Sweden was a possibility in 1444 (although not particularly likely) losing Norway wasn't at all. And it took a war on the scale of the Napoleonic wars to do that; and even then it only happened because Sweden switched side last minute.
 
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Ultimatedly pointless if a goal of outcomes isn´t set.

As I said before I´d rather see 1/10 danish games succeding than 9/10. Subjective? Yes, but I´d yet to see someone using a better argument to say what the acceptable range of outcomes for Denmark is in a hands off game.

Hell, it´s needed even to DEFINE what is a "succesful" danish game. Integrating both PUs? Having colonies too? Etc etc.
The game should yield as plausible outcomes as possible; Denmark losing Norway without something like the Napoleonic wars isn't really plausible. And neither is Denmark completely disappearing.
For successful I would say surviving and keeping Norway---including keeping Skåneland, since that fluke seriously wasn't plausible at all.
 
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In fact hadn't it been for the French demanding status quo ante bellum then we probably would have reconquered part of Skåne; perhaps even most of Skåne. (Halland and Blekinge weren't feasible to reconquer in that war.)

Denmark failed to capture Malmö or to make any landgains outside the captured towns so I personally don't think much had been gained even without French involvement, though it proved that Denmark still had sharp claws.
 
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Forgive my ignorance, but isn't this really the time period where Denmark began to lose its grip on power? Losing Sweden, unable to push its influence in the 30 years war, and ultimately losing Norway by EU4's timeline?
I'm not trying to be insulting, but I thought Denmark was fighting an uphill battle throughout this entire timeline.
Please do correct me if I'm wrong.
The 30 year war happened more than half a century after 1444. In 1444 Denmark was far superior to Sweden, having more population than both of it's nordic neighbours combined. It was also wealthier and simply put, far stronger than Sweden at the time.
 
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There is an AI bug right now where Denmark will almost immediately siphon income from Sweden, resulting in independence war etc. It's been fixed in 1.15.
So stoked for 1.15! Going to be a good patch I think ^_^
 
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Forgive my ignorance, but isn't this really the time period where Denmark began to lose its grip on power? Losing Sweden, unable to push its influence in the 30 years war, and ultimately losing Norway by EU4's timeline?
I'm not trying to be insulting, but I thought Denmark was fighting an uphill battle throughout this entire timeline.
Please do correct me if I'm wrong.
- here are difference between "loosing grip" and being conquered by Verden in first 50 years thou. :rolleyes:
 
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I find that Denmark pretty much loses Sweden from PU pretty much all of the time in my recent games, at least on historical lucky settings (havent played random lucky for a while now).

Generally, if they survive, they only managed to maintain some of the foothold they had in the start, but even then, they always loses Skane and the surrounding land, while also losing Holstein to someone else, or being forced to release Holstein as an independent.

They cannot usually handle an independent Sweden. They certainly are in no position to expand into the HRE without the Kalmar union intact, (even with the union it is difficult vs Austria), so they are pretty much stuck and have nowhere to grow. However, I have seen some cases where Danish-Russian alliance had made mincework out of the Swedes, and the Danes managed to gradually strip the Swedes of their territory... but those were a rare case, and contingent upon Russia actually forming at the right time before the Danish completely loses power.

It's good to know that the future patch will fix the issue, and allow more variability as to what may happen to the union.
 

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Yeah I know; and that is highly problematic.
Because while losing Sweden was a possibility in 1444 (although not particularly likely) losing Norway wasn't at all. And it took a war on the scale of the Napoleonic wars to do that; and even then it only happened because Sweden switched side last minute.

While I agree with most of your points I need to add some norwegian patriotism. As you said Norway never would have left the Union if it weren't for the Napoleonic wars. That is true with some modification. If you fast forward some years nationalism is hitting Europe, and what is romantesized as being norwegian is very far from being a Dane. Norway and Denmark probably would have split up at some point.

Also have to mention that Norway wasn't immediately swedish. After the treaty of Kiel Norway declared independence from both Denmark and Sweden, and stayed independent for the summer of 1814 until Sweden came back from Europe and enforced the treaty militarly. Norway never had a big army during this period, Norways strength lied within it's navy which take me to my next point.

While I didn't have any source to back me up I allways had the impression that most of the dano-norwegian fleet were in fact norwegian. Some quick digging around led me to this wiki-article https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Danish_Navy_(1510–1814)

In 1709 there were about 15,000 personnel enrolled in the common fleet. Of these 10 000 were Norwegian. WhenTordenskjold made his famous raid at Dynekil in 1716, over 80% of the sailors and 90% of the soldiers were Norwegian.

My guess is that this was pretty accurate for most of 17th and 18th century. Probably more even earlier. Norwegian navy has allways been strong though. And its one of the reasons that the norwegian fleet has been alot bigger than the danish after they split up. Dont have source for this but if memory serves me right Norway had the second or third largest trade fleet of the world going into WW2.

All in all I agree with your views that coincidence split up the Kalmar Union. Lots of history happens on a whim.
My favourite whatif is what would happen if the battle of Hastings took place before the battle of Stamford Bridge in 1066.

TL;DR: Denmark too weak/hard to model in current patch. Norway RULE!
 
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