Denmark is stille a pathentic state

[Secuter]

I've played a couple of games since the release of the Cossacs.
Denmark is continuesly destroyed by both Sweden, Pomerania, and Lübeck. From time to time, Mecklenburg joins the show.
From my perspective the greatest threat Denmark has is that it's between the HRE and has some strong nations that are willing to support Swedish indepence.
Non the less, by the 1500 - about 50 years into the game, Denmark are either weakened and often spiraling towards a quick death. This also stems from the fact that it has a hard time finding friends. And expansion is quite a tough after Sweden and possible Norway breaks loose.

Its navy is not strong enough to hold its own. It's slighly stronger than the swedish, but whenever the Teutonic navy enters the show the danish is often outnumbered.
The Danish ideas are still pathetic and weak, especially for a nation that had one of the largest navies in Europe. I understand that they army wise is somewhat weak, as it was so historically, but navy wise they should be the ones that dominates the baltic.

 

[Oddb@ll]

I agree. Denmark still seems to under perform in my games. The old usual division with north german states taking Jutland+some islands and Sweden taking Scania+some islands is kind of standard.

Solution? I dunno, perhaps buff ideas and another slight increase in development?

 

[petertel123]

a prestige granting event after the swedish independence war that allows denmark to keep its PU with norway.
Or, alternatively, an event/decision that auto-integrates norway after sweden is free

 

[Wizzington]

There is an AI bug right now where Denmark will almost immediately siphon income from Sweden, resulting in independence war etc. It's been fixed in 1.15.

 

[EriannMX]

In my current game Denmark actually reconquered Sweden and integrated Norway, forming Scandinavia.

It even won a war against England, reconquering some islands.

Unfortunately, I'm trying to do for Odin... Denmark has already lost Jutland to me... Poor Denmark :'(

 

[Sunspawn]

Another help it could receive is to nerf the damn rebels on Gotland - 1/2 of the time I see it suicide it's army on them, pushing Sweden to rebellious easily.

Also, AI needs to be taught to use subject interaction - -20% LD for loss of income is most definitely worth it.

 

[DukeofSerbia]

I run a lot of observer games.

1/10 Denmark do great.
4/10 Denmark somehow manage to survives 100 years but then is gone.
5/10 Denmark is gone in less than 50 years.

 

[PAnZuRiEL]

I think the Scandinavian Constitution event is still pretty problematic. If Denmark rejects the constitution, a prestige loss that severe, that early in the game, can make its continued overlordship of Norway and Sweden pretty tenuous. And if it accepts the constitution, the one-time MP and stab bonus isn't all that fantastic and it becomes almost impossible to keep control of Sweden. I think really only that last point is desirable.

IMO the penalty for rejecting the constitution shouldn't be nearly as severe, maybe -10 or -15 prestige instead of -25 so there isn't such a big risk of going deep into negative prestige and losing Sweden anyway from a badly-timed monarch death; and on the other hand, accepting the constitution should give a permanent buff like +10% tax or -10% stab cost or something instead of a minor once-off MP bonus. If the bonus for accepting it was better, then the opportunity cost for rejecting it would be much higher even if the prestige hit was less severe.

 

[Sunspawn]

As is, accepting the Constitution is generally a bad idea and Denmark gameplay revolves around keeping prestige at >30 in case of SC firing early.

 

[Secuter]

I run a lot of observer games.

1/10 Denmark do great.
4/10 Denmark somehow manage to survives 100 years but then is gone.
5/10 Denmark is gone in less than 50 years.

My observations seem to align with yours. I'd say that I have yet to see a strong Denmark. It's usually gone before 1500 and sometimes it lingers in some poor kind of shadow states that is begging to be finished off..

Problem with Denmark contrary to it's neighbours:
1: Everything south of Denmark is HRE
2: Sweden is strong and kinda separeted thus protected from its neighbours.
3: Norway can escape through colonialization. if they manage to survive that long

Denmark however, is trapped where they are with no real means to expand (poor army power) and neither the power to survive (outnumbered navy).
Even Opm in HRE have better survival chances than Denmark, and they don't even exist to this day.

In my eyes Denmark should be like Venice of the Baltic. Just like Venice have Genoa as it's main tradt city rival, so does Denmark have Lübeck and such.

 

[zsImmortal]

Another help it could receive is to nerf the damn rebels on Gotland - 1/2 of the time I see it suicide it's army on them, pushing Sweden to rebellious easily.

Also, AI needs to be taught to use subject interaction - -20% LD for loss of income is most definitely worth it.

Yep, did a bunch of retries for Sweden and there's not enough transports. Denmark will get its army slaughtered nonstop until it has no more manpower or troops to kill the rebels. Should help the AI figure out to let the rebels move to the mainland before attacking.

 

[DukeofSerbia]

My observations seem to align with yours. I'd say that I have yet to see a strong Denmark. It's usually gone before 1500 and sometimes it lingers in some poor kind of shadow states that is begging to be finished off..

Problem with Denmark contrary to it's neighbours:
1: Everything south of Denmark is HRE
2: Sweden is strong and kinda separeted thus protected from its neighbours.
3: Norway can escape through colonialization. if they manage to survive that long

Denmark however, is trapped where they are with no real means to expand (poor army power) and neither the power to survive (outnumbered navy).
Even Opm in HRE have better survival chances than Denmark, and they don't even exist to this day.

In my eyes Denmark should be like Venice of the Baltic. Just like Venice have Genoa as it's main tradt city rival, so does Denmark have Lübeck and such.

Last night in the latest observer game (I test Western Balkan mod so it doesn't impact nothing outside it, basically vanilla) Denmark somehow managed to get alliance with Poland who PUed Lithuania. I thought "finally Denmark can survive". Nope. As soon Poland was involved in some bloody HRE war with Bohemia, Brandenburg, Pommerania and some minors, everybody attacked Denmark and that was game over. Of course, Denmark honored defensive call from Poland initially, but Poland dishonered after Swedish alliance DoWed (soon followed by Lübeck alliance). And because AI always attack the weakest ally, well...

 

[Sopenas]

Hello,

In my recent game I am playing as TO and Denmark is doing really great. I even thought maybe with recent patches it got buffed somehow..

Here how things went:

• Denmark loses its initial Sweden independence war. I watched this fight passively (as Teutonic Order), did not took any actions in it. Sweden become independant.
• At this point I thought that Denmark will be soon finished by Sweden, so i offered Alliance to Sweden so we could beat Denmark togeher
• After some decades next Denmark - Sweden war happens. Sweden also has Scotland as his other alliance member. Denmark had some minor alliances in mainland. I accepted invitation to war and while i was busy with mainland countries, Sweden got beaten really bad by Denmark + Norway. After I dealt with mainland threats i hurried to help Sweden but it was too late, Sweden acceped the loss and lost some provinces.
• Few decades later next war stars, and I am again on Sweden side. Dont remember details but after this war Sweden also lost some provinces, despite my efforts to help them.
• Then I lost interested to Sweden as alliance partner and vassalized them (they were quite small by that time, had only 7k troops)
• Now it is religions war time and Denmark leads protestant armies against Austria. At this time I, as a Prussia command ~60k troops. (could be about 80 but I am at low manpower because of recent coalition war against me). And if not my help, Austria would be demolished by Denmark and her friends (biggest was ottomans, they are also doing very well in this game). I alone managed to occupy european part of ottomans, and their armies stuck on asia side. And only after i came to help to europe we started to beat denmark.

What i want to say, even with my, quite enormous help, sweden could not survive, and only because of my help catholics are winning religious wars against Denmark powerhouse

Thanks for attention

 

[Oahkoah]

I did the baltic crusader achievement over the weekend, so I spent a fair bit of the game looking at who was my neigbour, and it was pretty glorious.

First Sweden broke free and destroyed Norway and Denmark. Sampi somehow managed to revolt out of Norway and form. Sweden ate Denmark, then Norway ate Sweden. Denmark sprung up. Sweden then ate Norway, and then Norway ate Sweden. Sweden formed Scandanavia after eating Denmark and Norway. Denmark came back and Norway ate Sweden.
Sweden, as Scandavia, was finally reduced to Bornholm and Gotland. I ate Sweden.

Just watching that unfold on my border throughout the game was worthy of a norse saga. After getting the achievement I turned protestant and it took decades to convert all the land back and form Prussia, so I got bored and left the game with nothing left to do.

 

[Metz]

Denmark needs like 2 more provinces.

 

[pgroves]

It's funny, as with the changes to the strait rules, Denmark ought to be much easier to defend!

 

[PeterCorless]

Even in games where Sweden breaks free, I've allied Denmark, and helped them eat up (and core) half of Sweden, just to watch them get wrecked again and again in wars with Muscovy, Poland or some other nonsense. Even when "strong" they are incredibly weak. Generally it's because of them getting split either on the south or north side of the Baltic, and not knowing how to effectively move their armies or navies.

It's the same sort of craziness shown by other naval powers. But unlike Great Britain failing to land on the continent, or Portugal/Castile failing to invade North Africa but being separated from the Berber powers by the Straights of Gibraltar, Denmark has no place to run or hide.

I've seen just about everyone and their uncle core Denmark. It generally never lasts as an independent state until game end.

 

[Bouchart]

I've seen Denmark get eaten up by Mecklenberg.

 

[Red_warning]

It would be really interesting of Paradox deviced some unique kind of Kalmar union mechanic à la China or HRE, would add an extra gameplay layer to politics in northern Europe.

 

[Beagá]

I run a lot of observer games.

1/10 Denmark do great.
4/10 Denmark somehow manage to survives 100 years but then is gone.
5/10 Denmark is gone in less than 50 years.

It isn´t a bad range of outcomes to such a nation. Could be worse, like 99% chance of bad outcomes.

Also, Sweden declaring independence war early is a double edged sword, as Denmark can make allies and call them into the war. The result is Sweden losing the war AND provinces (I know, I did it myself playing as Denmark). If Sweden goes to war with only Novgorod supporting it usually ends up bad, with Muscowy declaring on Novgorod and Denmark winning and asking for land.

So while fixing the bug is nice, it does NOT mean the range of outcomes will be changed a lot.