Denmark is bugged in new Beta patch

[BiB]

And if Denmark does too shit against Sweden but Sweden overperforms constantly against many nations than the problem is Sweden, not Denmark

 

[devil]

England at some point was also ruled by a German dynasty. So was Spain. They didn't have much problems with their Germans either and got involved at times. Cultures are given out way too easily, cases with mroe than one should be extremely rare and be reserved for such special situations as Poland-Lithuania or such, not because they held lands of that culture for a bit and knew how to order beer in the language.

Yes it was ruled by german kings, but the fact that 40-50% of the danish population spoke german as the primary language and german was the official state language, should be enough to qualify for german culture. But as said balance wise I don't think german culture for denmark is a good idea, I prefer cores on North germany, or a north german culture.

And if Denmark does too shit against Sweden but Sweden overperforms constantly against many nations than the problem is Sweden, not Denmark

hehe we all know the problem is overpowered sweden

 

[devil]

Denmark is a slightly different case though:

• Denmark was ruled by a German dynasty, the Oldenburgs
• Denmark controlled Oldenburg and Holstein for more than a century without any big problems
• the King of Denmark was recognized as a prince of the Empire by all of Germany; nobody would have considered him a "foreigner"; compare this e.g. to how the Great Elector of Brandenburg could successfully play on German national sentiments in his propaganda against Sweden
• Denmark was very involved in German politics, e.g. the King of Denmark was the head of the Imperial Circle of Low Saxony (which is why he intervened in the TYW in defense of the North German protestants)

Indeed, Hell denmark should nearly be a HRE elector so german it was.

 

[Twoflower]

England at some point was also ruled by a German dynasty. So was Spain. They didn't have much problems with their Germans either and got involved at times. Cultures are given out way too easily, cases with mroe than one should be extremely rare and be reserved for such special situations as Poland-Lithuania or such, not because they held lands of that culture for a bit and knew how to order beer in the language.

That's just silly, and you know it
Some of these statements are true for other countries as well, but no other country has all these aspects that would justify German culture. While the Hapsburg rulers of Spain were indeed ethnic Germans, the first one (Charles V) had grown up in Ghent and spoke French as his first language and all after him were basically Spaniards, England under the Hanover dynasty never directly controlled any lands in Germany, and also England's Kings were quite powerless by then - the English Parliament or the English Prime Ministers, who were the ones that really mattered for English politics, were not in any way German. Also, all other non-German countries who happened to own German territories at some time were pretty much perceived as foreigners - be it Charles the Bold of Burgundy who was stopped from seizing the Archbishopric of Cologne by an alliance of German princes, be it Sweden against which, despite its Kings having been granted the status of Princes of the Empire in the Peace of Westphalia, the Great Elector could use national sentiments in his propaganda to win over popular opinion and the support of other German states, be it Louis XIV or Revolutionary France who had to deal with a lot of resistance in the German territories they occupied.
The influence of Germans on the affairs of state, the fact that the ruling dynasty was German, the fact that they were always accepted as owners of Imperial territory, the length of their completely unproblematic hold on German territories and their involvement in German "internal" affairs are all points that suggest that Denmark would deserve German state culture much more than any other non-German country and just as much as Bohemia, which currently gets German as secondary culture - if any country besides Bohemia should get German as secondary culture, it would be Denmark, and if Denmark doesn't get German culture, I'd even consider German culture for Bohemia questionable. On the level of accuracy there can be no argument at all that German culture for Denmark can be justified quite well.
This however is not to say that gameplay considerations should not take precedence; if this would in MP games result in Denmark becoming a complete über-power or preventing Brandenburg-Prussia from doing anything
special, German culture for Denmark is a bad change. If that should prove not to be the case, though, I like it pretty much.

 

[devil]

Was there any historical war in 1419, NO, then you dont know how sweden would have done in such war. The point with this game is to start with historical start conditions. Then you can do whatever you want with these.

They are indeed not historical and swedish events/leaders certainly doesn't make it historical.

And as Fredde said, sweden in mp normally has no change against denmark before 1520.

Denmark was dipomaticly very skillful in beginning. And another reason for there greatness was that they mayby had better tech.

So i would rather say, increase tech compared to sweden (if it's historical), and give them good diplomatic possibilities. As that is historicly correct.

Well lets not forget denmark didn't "fall" untill 1600, fact is denmark had better tech, better troops, better earnings. Sweden had peasents armed with hayforks, and where dirt poor. And not they didn't magically transform into super elite soldiers in 1520, it took a 100 years to shape sweden into a millitary power, and still they where not as rich as denmark. In MP sweden is always much richer and stronger than Denmark from aroudn 1520 and forwards. It is because of several factors: Danish monarchs with extremly low ADM skills, which is frankly a mystery me, but also because of to high manpower and tax values in sweden. Not to forget Godly leaders and Monarchs, while denmark has the opposite.

Dont try to balance the game by giving denmark more then they had.

Funny you didn't see seem to have that problem, when its about sweden "/Preserv the true historical events!" RIGHT! Lets start with making it historical shall we?

 

[unmerged(10894)]

Indeed, Hell denmark should nearly be a HRE elector so german it was.

Sweden was a HRE elector as per the Treaty of Westphalia yet I don't see anyone giving them German.

I think the main problem here is Sweden is too powerful pre-1600, thus Denmark and Novgorod are made to look weak in comparison. The fact was that there were only a couple a towns in Finland worth mentioning at this time, and that Sweden's best lands were actually controlled by Denmark. Alvsborg and such. I think it is fair to say that Sweden's provinces above Gastrikland were not so much use to them this early.

 

[BiB]

That's just silly, and you know it
Some of these statements are true for other countries as well, but no other country has all these aspects that would justify German culture. While the Hapsburg rulers of Spain were indeed ethnic Germans, the first one (Charles V) had grown up in Ghent and spoke French as his first language and all after him were basically Spaniards, England under the Hanover dynasty never directly controlled any lands in Germany, and also England's Kings were quite powerless by then - the English Parliament or the English Prime Ministers, who were the ones that really mattered for English politics, were not in any way German. Also, all other non-German countries who happened to own German territories at some time were pretty much perceived as foreigners - be it Charles the Bold of Burgundy who was stopped from seizing the Archbishopric of Cologne by an alliance of German princes, be it Sweden against which, despite its Kings having been granted the status of Princes of the Empire in the Peace of Westphalia, the Great Elector could use national sentiments in his propaganda to win over popular opinion and the support of other German states, be it Louis XIV or Revolutionary France who had to deal with a lot of resistance in the German territories they occupied.
The influence of Germans on the affairs of state, the fact that the ruling dynasty was German, the fact that they were always accepted as owners of Imperial territory, the length of their completely unproblematic hold on German territories and their involvement in German "internal" affairs are all points that suggest that Denmark would deserve German state culture much more than any other non-German country and just as much as Bohemia, which currently gets German as secondary culture - if any country besides Bohemia should get German as secondary culture, it would be Denmark, and if Denmark doesn't get German culture, I'd even consider German culture for Bohemia questionable. On the level of accuracy there can be no argument at all that German culture for Denmark can be justified quite well.
This however is not to say that gameplay considerations should not take precedence; if this would in MP games result in Denmark becoming a complete über-power or preventing Brandenburg-Prussia from doing anything
special, German culture for Denmark is a bad change. If that should prove not to be the case, though, I like it pretty much.

OK then how about giving Spain French culture! It would be equally shit for the game. Giving out state cultures based on such justifications is detrimental for the game and usually end up making little more than the possibility of yet another player aberrated weird scenario.

This is one of those things again when a problem gets a lot of attention all of a sudden and then gets a solution which does not only not fix the problem but creates new ones on top of that.

The Danish kings have such low values, they probably simply couldn't see the difference between Danish and German

Denmark underperforms compared to Sweden, Sweden consistantly overperforms. Beefing up Denmark means that maybe it will now do ok vis à vis Sweden (this change won't do that however) and that it very likely will overperform when it comes to the rest, thus creating a new problem.

 

[kurtbrian]

well yes, but a an overperforming Denmark is much better game - wise than an overperforming Sweden...

Historically german culture for Denmark could easily be defended.
Game-wise I'm not sure its a good idea.

BiB, what do you suggest is done to make Denmark perform more historically?

and as for giving Spain french culture is as bad as giving denmark german culture....
I don't think it is as disrupting for the game with Denmark's extra culture...

 

[Galleblære]

How would changing a few of Swedens northern/Finland provinces into colonies do?

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

And if Denmark does too shit against Sweden but Sweden overperforms constantly against many nations than the problem is Sweden, not Denmark

I tend to agree with this, and I have the research to support it (just check one of the many times I have posted the Denmark/Sweden 1419 comparison ) - though I will still point out that Danish income in any 1419/1492/1520 setup is still pitifully small compared to the sort of money available to the king of Denmark. However, that the problem is really Sweden is irrelevant as concerns editing events and starting setup, since it is a given that Sweden will never, ever, be weakened unless AndrewT manages to sneak a change past Johan.

We have Johan's definite D) word that Sweden is underpowered rather than overpowered, referring to the authoritative book on the subject: Rudbeck's Atlantica. As such, we really should be happy that the Swedes are not armed with Ancient Atlantean (read Swedish) Laser Weapons.

Given that Sweden cannot be weakened, it thus becomes relevant to discuss strengthening Denmark. And screw their impact on Brandenburg/Prussia for MP purposes. The only reason that Brandenburg ever amounts to anything in MP is because they are coddled by other players and/or have specific house rules protecting them. (E.g. Nobody is allowed to partition Brandenburg. Everybody is allowed to partition Poland). I seriously doubt German culture will matter much in that regard either way, as the German provinces are already the most tempting targets in the neighbourhood, German culture or no culture, and the completely ahistorical reasons that players use to keep Brandenburg alive are not going to go away.

Now, I would be perfectly happy with removing German culture and that insane RR for a historical event that did not create RR, and I would be happier still if the King of Denmark was made as rich as historical - possibly through a series of 400 Sound Due events, one per year, giving him a big bag of gold if he still holds both Sjælland and Skåne, while removing the +10 tax effect of the Sound Due event... And while we are at it, give most Danish monarchs either a +1 ADM or +1 DIP boost.

 

[AndrewT]

As always, anyone willing to post in the BR forum suggestions for boosting or demoting leaders or monarchs of any country, with adequate support, will get a fair hearing.

 

[Hive]

I only partially agree with those who say the problem is Sweden being too strong. Sure, their leaders, monarchs and especially their crazy events are way too über.

However, it would also help greatly to boost Danish ditto somewhat... as it is now, I'd say it's bordering rediculous.

 

[Hive]

As always, anyone willing to post in the BR forum suggestions for boosting or demoting leaders or monarchs of any country, with adequate support, will get a fair hearing.

How about adjusting the events?

I'd say a big part of this whole problem can be solved by tweaking events... one thing I'd like to see changed is that weird CoT Sweden can get through an ahistorical option...

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

As always, anyone willing to post in the BR forum suggestions for boosting or demoting leaders or monarchs of any country, with adequate support, will get a fair hearing.

Are you also open for suggestions such as halving the number of tax and manpower boosts Sweden receives by event and doing away with a manufactory or two?

 

[DPS]

How about adjusting the events?

I'd say a big part of this whole problem can be solved by tweaking events... one thing I'd like to see changed is that weird CoT Sweden can get through an ahistorical option...

That's only potentially a problem if a human player is playing Sweden in MP. You can make a house rule that the player can't take that choice, or, alternately, if he does take it, use it as a pretext to assemble a coalition against him. Otherwise, they're very unlikely to get it if controlled by the AI, and if played by a human player in SP, well, if it bothers you, don't take that option.

 

[Fredrik82]

Are you also open for suggestions such as halving the number of tax and manpower boosts Sweden receives by event and doing away with a manufactory or two?

Fact is, you cant make Sweden much weaker in a 1419 start. With a monthly income of 6.5 Ducats and a support limit of 21K troops just speak for itself. any kind of weakening of Sweden at this time should strongly limit there chances to make it to the Vasa time in a historical shape...

 

[Fredrik82]

How about adjusting the events?

I'd say a big part of this whole problem can be solved by tweaking events... one thing I'd like to see changed is that weird CoT Sweden can get through an ahistorical option...

It's not more ahistorical then that Poland recive a COT, though Sweden did create a center of trade at that time when the Västindienkompaniet was found.

 

[Galleblære]

Funny thing is, I only see Swedes protesting about weakening Sweden. The Wasa reforms etc bring quite a few province improvements, so I don't see the problem of having them weaker at the startup.

EDIT: Or if the swedish events can be modified, that wouldn't be needed.

 

[Galleblære]

It's not more ahistorical then that Poland recive a COT, though Sweden did create a center of trade at that time when the Västindienkompaniet was found.

But surely EU2 doesn't give every real life "center of trade" a COT.

 

[Hive]

It's not more ahistorical then that Poland recive a COT, though Sweden did create a center of trade at that time when the Västindienkompaniet was found.

But that's not how it works... who didn't have a West Indian company, or something similar?

Poland having a CoT in Danzig is far more justified than Sweden getting a CoT through the AHISTORICAL option...

Your problem, Fred, is that you are too nationalistic to be objective about this. You won't even consider any suggestions to weaken Sweden just the slightest bit.